Iowa Watcher #121 - interesting thoughts - yes, I agree the Kaplan story can go one of several ways.  I'm hoping for reconciliation as I think Red has begun to realize that Kaplan was in some ways right, but who knows.  

With Kirk, its the second time (the first being with Berlin) there have been analogous situations to Red's with Liz - first Red speaking to Berlin about  how Berlin's obsession with finding his daughter would destroy him; then Kirk admitting to Liz that his obsession with finding her had destroyed him.  The key difference I think is that Red never had to find Liz, he always knew where she was.  But he is obsessed with being with her now, and hoping to protect her,  nevertheless.  (I still have a  big question mark over where Kirk thought Liz was all of this time, or why he never sought her out before now, but that's a discussion for another day!  )

So will Red's obsession with Liz ultimately destroy him as well, one way or the other?  It's very possible.

Last edited by lara1 (11/12/2016 3:53 pm)

deadskie13 wrote:

Honey West wrote:

Forgot to add the image of Katarina hopping the fence and dancing in the window frame. Pretty sure her cover was that she was a ballerina and that probably confirms that idea. I'm pretty sure that's what they were telling us. and also Red telling Kirk that he wasn't an interloper, he was an assignment, and that Kirk probably was, too.

I also very much agree with this.  ^-^

Actually on my rewatch, I think he actually said she was running free and dancing. LOL! But the dancing and free spirit thing was cool.

deadskie13 wrote:

Those are some great points, and thanks for posting them!  I haven't been able to put much thought into the details, but one of the things that immediately stood out to me, was the deal where Red mentioned Marrakesh again.  He said, "I died in Marrakesh, once."  And this is the second time he said it.  ....<snip>....  But this go around--it just seemed so odd that out of all the things Red could be saying in what is perhaps his final moments, that he brings this up again.    

And so I thought, Red has died--he did die. He told us so.  In Marrakesh.  Once.  And so I'm wondering if that isn't a clever, tricksy way of squeaking by while telling the truth--but doing so, in an anachronistic kind of way.  
 

I think you are probably right there. He can say that her father died and be telling the truth. He never said her father was still dead or even when he died. Of course anyone would reach that logical conclusion. Normally when you die you stay dead. In The Courier he said he "died once in Marrakesh. I was gone for 2 1/2 minutes. You wouldn't believe what I saw on the other side." Something like that. Maybe he felt reborn after that? So in a sense, his old self died.

deadskie13 wrote:

Kirk's "goon" that Ressler and Samar interrogate, is wearing a name patch that says "Ray".    The goon bit, in general, was most top-notch!  :D  

Totally! When I saw there "Ray" patch on his shirt I laughed out loud! I'll bet the wardrobe folks found that and just couldn't resist. And Red's defense of his men as not being goons was priceless.

deadskie13 wrote:

Tom Keen:  polite action man, extraordinaire!  

I have a feeling we will see a lot of that aspect of Tom in Redemption.

deadskie13 wrote:

Kirk is afraid of death, but Red isn't.  This makes Kirk Voldemort.  :D

LOL!

deadskie13 wrote:

 I also very much like and appreciate that Kate doesn't seem to hold any grudge towards Red; it's like she feels like she got what she deserved--even though she knew she didn't do anything wrong, she accepts that in Red's eyes, she did.

Well she did tell Tom that Red "knows what he HAS to do". So she knew from the get-go that she was forcing him to have to kill her for what she did. And she accepted her fate. But now she has a second chance...

deadskie13 wrote:

Red gets his hat back!  

I thought that was a poignant little shot of Red's hat on the table. Either Liz was keeping it as a reminder of him or maybe as a holdout that he'd make it back and retrieve it eventually.

deadskie13 wrote:

 And then Liz hugs Red!  :D  But he doesn't hug back, ...snip... And then, of course, asking permission to hold Agnes, and watching his face light up, and how he's just focused on the moment, for once.

He hugged her back. But her hug was the stronger one, and for the reasons you mentioned, and was more emphasized by the camera angle. He also didn't want to crush his hat, which he was still holding. Red plans for the future, but he definitely lives in the moment. 

Great observations as always, deadskie13! Always love to read your comments!
 

If Katarina is, in fact, dead, maybe Red told Kirk where to find his father-in-law Dom. At least he's family related to her.

lara1 wrote:

One thing that doesn't add up for me:

Dom said to Red that he had basically messed up in a colossal way, making them all back out of Masha's life completely.  It doesn't seem from what Kirk said, that the group of people who "backed out" because of that event included Kirk.  It was more like Katarina, Dom and Red, then.  

Kirk also said there was no fire when others seem to have known about it and Liz has a seared bunny and a scar.  Where was Kirk, why did he not know what was happening with Masha etc and (if he was telling the truth) why did he know nothing about a fire, and why did he not understand that Masha was in danger?  He seems to know nothing about those events, yet some of it must have happened given Dom's remarks.

Also Kirk says he came home one day to find his wife and daughter gone.  Yet unless Katarina went with Red willingly, I'm not sure how they would have disappeared at the same time.  If the fight in the fire memories is Red and Katarina (which it now sounds to me like it was), it doesn't seem that Red, Katarina and Masha left together.

Something is not adding up.  Does anyone else think this?  or did I miss something?

Okay, when specifically did Kirk say there was no fire. I'm not remembering his words. It could be that he was not involved in anything on fire night and had no idea that it had even happened. I'm kind of getting the idea that he was in the dark about a lot of Katarina's doings. We thought he was involved, but I am starting to think that Red guessed right that he was mostly a good cover for her, providing lots of access to people she could spy on. She probably did a lot of things he never found out about. The fire would have happened after they left him and he probably never saw Masha again, so he wouldn't have seen her scar.

So that makes me think about Red's comment to Liz about how Katarina had to deal with the man she loved being killed by the child she adored. Maybe Katarina thought Red had died the night of the fire? And he let her believe that. After all, if that's when he was burned then he would have been out of circulation for quite awhile. That's the part that doesn't add up for me because then who took Liz to Sam? And when did that happen?

We may have gotten the daddy question answered, but we sure as heck didn't learn much beyond that. Plenty of stuff left to keep me watching, that's for sure! 

Honey West #132 - I am now thinking that Kirk was not at fire night.  He told Liz that Red took her and he never saw her again and she was basically lost to him.  Katarina must have followed Red immediately if neither were around when Konstantin got home that day. I'm also thinking that fire night may have been in a place other than the Summer Palace. - wherever Red took Liz.  It also seems that Kirk did not realize that Masha was in danger (for reasons we don't really know yet), as it seems only Dom, Red and Katarina "backed out of her life".  And that Katarina may never have gone back to Konstantin, so he knew nothing.  And two months later she disappeared into the ocean.  Which makes me also think that the story Kirk told Red was a little too rosy regarding how they were all a happy family.  And Red had said to Liz that her father was the only man that her mother had ever truly loved, so that could not have been Kirk.  (Of course if Liz's actually DNA had been altered, all bets are off - but I'm not going there - at least not right now!  LOL  )

# 133 - yes its true Kirk never actually denied a fire, but I think (my opinion) he denied Liz her memory of it, and made it seem false as he spoke of Red having lied to her when he told her that her father had died.  

Which leads me to another question - how did Kirk know that Red had told her that?  I guess he assumed it when Liz said to him that her father was dead.

So maybe little by little we are scraping away at answers....sort of!

Thursday's episode is still not on On Demand yet here so I am experiencing withdrawal symptoms at not being able to re-watch it.   LOL!  

Last edited by lara1 (11/12/2016 11:34 pm)

Honey West #135 - yes, that's interesting, isn't it?  more parallels/mirror images to Red with the "memories of a child" comment.   Kirk then tells her that Red had told her all lies, whereas Red maintains that he has never lied to Liz.  Yet, everything about Red is a lie....

I wondered how Kirk came to that conclusion about Red.  As you say, Red had told her nothing about their connection.

HI tuxie400  #137.  I had heard that this theory has been getting a lot of discussion since Thursday.  It certainly is possible, fascinating idea  and things point to it in the same way that things point to other theories.   It is definitely worth exploring and re-watching from this perspective to see what lines up and what doesn't

Couple of preliminary thoughts:
 I'm not entirely convinced yet as I think Artax negates quite a bit of it (in my view).  At one point, Dom says to Red, stop going through "her things" and talks about how he crawled into the wilderness after Katarina died..  Unless Dom doesn't know -  and I could see how certain things in that episode might point to the mother theory also.  And Red is saying how he is imagining how Katarina may have been playing with glitter, etc

then you have "Red" blowing up Tacoma Park because that was where he raised his family and something horrible happened., bubble girl and someone who seems to have been 3 years old.  As far as we know, katarina and her family never lived there and bubble girl doesn't really look like young Liz in the Summer Palace memories.  And Red really seems like "Red" when he kills diane Fowler, who had something to do with what happened to his family. Still, none of that has ever been explained to us....

Still I think though there is also a lot that points to Red begin Katerina.  It would be interesting to go back to the beginning with all of the former theories and clues we all had (warrior gene, programmed assassins etc) and test them against the  theory.

In the meantime I'm looking into whether Liz is really Masha.  I think regardless, there were two girls in that fire house, and there was a former daughter of Red's from the family he lost.  

Here's an interesting thing that I'll just throw out there - from what we have known of Katerina and seen in the flashbacks thus far, she has called Liz "Masha".  The fire night fights were between someone calling for Elizabeth and someone calling Masha.  Red is careful to always call her Elizabeth, even when alone with Kirk.  Fascinating isn't it?  LOL  

Last edited by lara1 (11/13/2016 6:29 pm)

lara1 wrote:

Maybe that is also why Red really didn't want to kill Kirk - and never sought to for all those years - Red emphathzed with Kirk and his actions,  as Kirk thought Liz his daughter; and Kirk did raise her when she was a child.

I'm thinking along the same lines, too.  Figure the more we heard about Kirk, the more easy it was to see him and Red as opposite sides of the same coin.  The only difference is, Kirk was oblivious to the facts, whereas Red knew the whole story.  

Given as such, I imagine Red felt the poor guy had suffered enough:  his wife was using him as a cover and/or connection in some kind of way--and was also having an affair, in the process, he was led to believe Elizabeth was his daughter when she wasn't, and he inherited a fatal genetic illness.  And, if he was "just a businessman" as he stated, then the whole kidnapping, and the Fulcrum, and the spying, and the blackmail--just everything--would have come completely right out of left field, and with no precursor.  

Coupled with the end results being his wife killing herself, and his daughter-who-he-honestly-thought-was-his, vanishing.  That's a complete 180, overnight--and that's also a pretty crappy life. I'm glad the story line allotted for such an explanation, though, on account that for the first time we're allowed to see Kirk as a sympathetic character.