Actually per my post above,  the commercial is not posted on Aly Blacklist, but on Aly's Twitter page.

I'm not looking at the timeline right now, but if Red acknowledges that he was one of Katarina's assignments, and she was KGB, then he, being in Navy intelligence, was either a willing double agent, or was in jeopardy of being court martialled if he was discovered. Did he then grab the fulcrum materials and Masha to be able to have bargaining chips with both sides? And Fitch ended up giving him deep cover? (Including his marriage to Naomi?)

lara1 wrote:

I also wanted to give a huge shout out to Spader.  He absolutely killed that episode.  The expressions on his face throughout, but especially in scenes like waiting with Dembe to be picked up by Kirk's men, when he asks Dembe for forgiveness, when he sees Liz again were just heartbreaking.  IMO, few can do subtlety like Spader.  That's not to take away from the scenes with Kirk, which were also riveting.

I really do hope he gets an Emmy this year.

 
Props to that - but since TBL isn't a network procedural - and given that many Emmy voters seem to have their faces buried up HBO orifices its gonna be a tough slug. If he's not nominated that's a crime but if he doesn't win that's just business as usual - in the fraudulent ways the Emmy committee does business.

Its rather like those paid-for business awards you see in various cities. In actuality many businesses have worse reputations than Donald Trump - but they pay for such "trumped up awards" out of their advertising budgets to convince easily swayed dupes/consumers to go to their products and/or services.

I still watch the Emmys - often the best awards are the unknown or breakout star awards.

There's a doctor woman on the new "Pure Genius" show who's been capturing my attention. I'll try to find her name but she kinda looks like Ressler's first partner on TBL, maybe she is?

fwiw - I'd recommend continuing this wonderful site set up by our site-runners and fellow TBL fans to branch off and run Blacklist: Redemption (aka Black Licorice: Detention) on the same site! Any thoughts?

Had another dark thought last nite after Kate emerged from Leon's squatter-motel. Perhaps she was sent there for a reason, that it was all a plan by Red to put her down and let Mountain Leon find her. Perhaps Leon had something of great value within his humble abode? (Even I don't think there's more than a 1% chance this is the route, but I put it out there cuz its rather chilling)

That commercial was funny and they didn't totally break character, but also weren't totally in character either. Hearkened  back to Samar and Aram's "blind date" ad last year and Tom's Mustang the year before. Also reminded me of their 3 Stooges and pretzels scene.

Anyway. We are obviously not meant to know what Red told Kirk, only that it was the only thing he could say that would stop Kirk. Red didn't want to die, and once Liz was safely away everything he could do was to try to stay alive and escape, so he did what he had to and finally got Kirk to spare him. We also don't know how much time passed between Liz and Ressler finding the empty garage and Red and Dembe showing up to see Liz. I think Red went somewhere with Kirk and they were in a hurry because Red left his hat. Maybe to see Dr Shaw, since Kirk was in bad shape. He could barely get up to do in Red at the end. And he just sort of collapsed back into his chair after the whisper. He was in a bit of shock by what Red told him. But Red had said earlier, I think a couple of times, that he was offering to save Kirk because it would save both of them. Beyond the immediate problem, I think Red was referring to something else when he said that, so maybe he had to deliver an alive Kirk for something else in return for something or someone else. Part of The Big Plan. Otherwise why go through all of that to get Shaw and save Kirk?

Red is Liz's father. We've been misdirected so much that we can't even believe it when it is confirmed. Yet we have seen so much that has always pointed in that direction. The mother theory really makes no sense unless you can show a way that Red had an affair with himself, as it were. But they spent a lot of time having Red tell the story to Constantin of what happened, at least from his perspective. To the point of telling the story as we have figured it - Masha lived with her parents for four years, which brings us up to fire night, if that even really happened, and then after that she was raised by Sam. So I think the real story has been told and confirmed, to keep redoing and undoing would just make us viewers mad at this point. . So now we still have the big question of motive left unanswered. Why did Red really want to save Kirk? He was perfectly willing to kill him when Liz was dead, but noe Kirk has returned to whatever state of grace existed before all of that in Red's world.

More later, I'm still thinking this through.

LOL Tuxie400! Waiting for Kirk to collapse by literally talking him to death. That would be Red all right. No wonder Kirk decided to suffocate him. To shut him up. Anyway, I think whatever Red said, it was totally his ace in the hole and he probably hoped that Kirk would go for the earlier offer of being cured, or that Kirk might just collapse, but knew that Kirk hated him so thoroughly that he needed to be prepared to use whatever that last weapon was. Daniel Cerone did a terrific job of writing that clash of the titans scene and Spader and Thomsen acted the heck out of it. Plus kudos to lighting and makeup and props for coming up with those nasty-looking syringes and such. The Blacklist also has exceptionally good DPs and they can make anything look great when filming, bring a depth and richness to even the most spartan of settings.
Forgot to add that it was a great choice to hand the directing to Michael Watkins for that very important reveal. They handled it well, and it could have been very melodramatic or cheesey.

Last edited by Honey West (11/11/2016 4:59 pm)

So, let's see, what did we get for sure. And I think Red was telling Kirk truths. Maybe Kirk didn't like to hear some of them, but what did Red have to lose by telling the truth? Nothing really. What did he have to gain by lying? Even less.

So, going back to the beginning and a lot of early theorizing, we see that a lot of what we suspected seems to be true. This is because it makes the most sense based on what we've been told. And we've also been told that the clues have been there all along.

Red had a very promising career in Naval Intelligence at one time. I'm sure it led to his being sent to Russia or wherever it was that he encountered Katarina Rostova. He was smart, moving up quickly, his superiors had taken notice of him and he was making a name for himself. He has said he was arrogant, thought he knew everything, pretty full of himself, but was a different person back then. Sidebar:  I think he and Carla were already married and probably had a daughter. I still like my earlier theory that they met while he was at the Academy and probably had Jennifer at that time, got married as soon as he graduated, but that Carla had raised Jennifer by herself for a couple of years, hence the MY daughter comments to him later. 

Katarina, a KGB agent, had met and married Constantin Rostov, a wealthy, high-placed Russian businessman. Did she truly love him or was he just another mark of hers? Red left that sort of open, but he suggested last night that Constantin was just another "assignment" as he had been. That his wealth and position provided her with the perfect cover while her mission was to seduce and get secret information from foreign diplomats, officials and intelligence operatives for the KGB. Like him. Red fell for it. As smart as he was, he was duped by this KGB agent. He fell in love with her, apparently. All he knew was that she was this other guy's beautiful wife, maybe he didn't know she was KGB, but later found out. Worse yet, she got pregnant. He said to Liz that she was furious about her pregnancy, wanted to end it even. We all said, then why didn't she terminate it? I think that Constantin found out about the same time she did. he was probably ecstatic that he was going to become a father and have a family. There was no way she couldn't have the baby then, it would blow her cover for one thing, and I'm not sure Constantin even knew she was KGB at that time. It sounds like Red tried to get her to leave Constantin, take the baby and go with him, which tells me that Red knew darn well it was his kid. Meanwhile Constantin found out about their affair, wondered if Red was the father of his little girl. The DNA test was faked in order to fool him into thinking "nah!" So Constantin raised little Masha as his own and thought he had a nice little happy family for four years.

What I'd like to know is when did Red find out that Katarina was a KGB agent? Because until then he probably just thought he was having an affair with this rich Russian guy's wife. If discovered he might get reprimanded and probably reassigned, but when it became known she was KGB all hell would've broken loose for him. He would be looking at court-martial, prison, maybe even a charge of treason, not to mention his career was over. Had Katarina truly fallen in love with him? Was that feeling mutual or did Red just feel responsible for Masha after all was said and done. I get the feeling that he may have fallen for her during the course of their affair, but that after it was over his feelings changed, and he was furious that he'd been duped by the KGB, becoming their greatest enemy, but it was too late to rescue his career, so he decided to rescue Masha and let the chips fall where they would, since his life was pretty messed up. I can only imagine what Carla was thinking when she found out.

So then the kidnapping happened. Not only was Red a traitor but now he was a kidnapper, too. I think he kept Elizabeth with Carla and Jennifer for a time. Somehow the Cabal and the Fulcrum became involved. The fire happened. We still don't know what really happened that night, maybe we will get that story someday. But the result was that either Red or Constantin were presumed dead because of it. I think Constantin had been disgraced and needed to change his identity, so Alexander Kirk was born from the ashes. Red got away with Masha and eventually gave her to Sam to raise. Katarina thought they were both dead, couldn't take it, and committed "suicide" Or did she? Open question there. I think Fitch was a mentor to Red at some point and helped him with the memory erasing and such and maybe even to start his new life. Maybe having the Fulcrum as leverage helped with that. But since Fitch helped Berlin's daughter, I think there is a precedent for that happening. Then, whatever happened to Red's family happened. But was it a smokescreen or did something bad really happen?

We still have an awful lot of loose ends and questions, even if my feeble attempt to flesh out what Red told Kirk is anywhere near. And we still don't have the roles of the Cabal, the other dots on Red's Map of Doom, and whether or not there is still something more special about Liz herself. Her mother was a "keeper of secrets" and by association, some have come after Liz for that, too. Liz doesn't think she knows anything, but who knows really. Probably Red. He knows everything! LOL!

Anyway, just some thoughts. Let me know if I've missed anything.

Honey West 05 - You are absolutely right about Tom's thank you. I was just sillily suggesting the other.

But for #92. if anyone could talk someone to death, it would be Red. LOL

#94 - I think you gave us a well thought-out assessment of Red's back story, based on what we've learned in the past.

Tuxie400 #96, I think Tom had a pretty typical Tom-reaction to Red's non-answer. It's actually kind of nice to see them "getting along" these days. Wait till Tom finds out that's his father-in-law. LOL! Maybe he already suspects it. And yes, I loved that when Kirk said "Suffocation. You talk too much." Red nearly talked himself to death, though. That was close. But he basically saved his own life by listening for a change. Maybe he will learn to listen more.

lara1 #97, the re-watch makes it clearer. Especially the things Red tells Kirk (and us). Watch Kirk's reaction to whatever Red whispered to him. He's clearly shocked. Red didn't have time to tell him much, but it was sure enough to stop him dead in his tracks. I'm sure they went to see Dr. Shaw. But I still want to know why Red was so interested in saving Kirk in the end. I'm sure when he told Liz Kirk was "gone" that he didn't kill him. I actually think Red felt sorry for Kirk for what happened in the past. It sure appears that Kirk may have been sort of an innocent bystander to the machinations of Katarina. A well-connected cover for her. It's even possible that he only learned of her KGB connection after her supposed suicide. Or later. Maybe he was the one who sent Velov looking for her?

I only embellished what we have learned. But one thing for sure is that there are plenty of unknowns to keep us busy for the rest of the series!

And I really loved all of the comments that were made about Kirk's obsession with Liz. You could have substituted Red's name at any time.  And when Kirk was telling Liz that he should have let her go long ago, Red was looking very uncomfortable because that was him, too.

Honey West wrote:

I must say the last thing I expected was Red standing in the doorway looking like nothing had happened.

I think they had to give that one to us, because we can't have Red precariously dangling on the edge of near death for almost two months!  In that regard, I think the show runners have been most kind.  The cliffhangers for mid-season and final finales have always been exciting, but with some resolution.  And jeez-o-peetz!  Especially this one!  ^-^

Honey West wrote:

I really think Red told Kirk that Katarina is still alive as his ace in the hole. He's been protecting her all these years and she's wherever Naomi went. It would be funny if Naomi really was Katarina, though. It I agree, the only thing to stop Kirk in the end was telling him about Katarina.

Hah!  That would be amazing, if Naomi ended up being Katerina this whole time.    I haven't zeroed in on any one thing, yet--there's a lot to take in this go around, after all.  But part of me thinks that would be the obvious route, that Red would have told Kirk his "wife" is still alive and where to find her and all--but, well, it was also kind of sort of the obvious route to have Red be Lizzy's father, too, and they pulled that one off pretty well.  So it could very well be something that simple!  

Honey West wrote:

I don't think the whole thing was a Red Plan, though. He had planned the best he could but it was still dangerous and many things could go wrong. Therefore I think the goodbye scene with Dembe was genuine. Red knew there was a good chance he wouldn't be coming back. But he did ask Dembe to forgive him for everything and for Kate in particular.

I very much agree.  I think Red tried his best to anticipate the final outcome, but ran out of time.  And so he trusted Dembe (and begrudgingly, Tom) to set the final pieces into play.  And I think a lot of that came not only from desperation and being out of options and having nothing to lose, but also that you have Red willingly allowing someone else to be in charge and take control--be it Dembe and Tom scrambling to save Red, or Kirk at the other end to the line.  Previously, we've seen instances in which Red allows people to think they're calling the shots--but this is one of the first times I recall that he's actually flat-out allowed others to have at it.  

Honey West wrote:

Speaking of Kate, that was interesting, too. After all this time of making us think that the Hunter was maybe a bad guy, he turns out to really be a good guy.

Gah!  I think they handled this in the best way possible!  Because here we are, thinking this guy is more than a little creepy, and has the potential to be really creepy--but instead, we just have this reclusive fellow who's more than a little skittish about the predicament he inadvertently finds himself in.  It reminded me of the bit back in Anslo Garrick, where Ressler asks Red why he's saving him, and Red says something along the lines of, "Because that's what you do, when you see someone dying in front of you."

Honey West wrote:

I was right in that WE got an answer but Liz didn't. So the EPs were fooling with us. The main answer that Liz got was certain confirmation that Kirk was definitely not her father. So I guess they were right that Liz would get an answer. Just not the one that we got.

I was kind of banking on that one--that they just kind of switched things up a bit, in the sense that now the exciting bit will be when Elizabeth gets to be privy to the information we have.  It's sort of like an inside-secret now, between us and the creators.  A wink of sorts, if you will.  ;)

Honey West wrote:

But in the end we got Red admitting to Kirk that Liz is his daughter. I don't think he was lying. Why? By then he had nothing more to lose. If he said no, Kirk was going to kill him, if he said yes, Kirk was going to kill him. Saying yes got him nowhere. That was just for us.

I agree 100%.  I don't think the creators would have gone to all this trouble, and all this hype, to reveal the original secret earlier than anticipated in the game, unless it were true.  Because I think once season 3 hit the ground and running, it wasn't about if Red was her father or not anymore, so much as how she was in danger because of who she was.  And so I think the reason they gave us this big one, is on account of how quickly other unanswered questions have multiplied and grown throughout the series.  I mean in all honesty, a part of me was all antsy that they were coughing up the goods--I was thinking oh no!  what are they going to do now? and then five seconds later, we have Red telling Kirk something that stops him--and us--on his tracks.  Oh, YOU!  That's what I feel like telling the writers.  

Honey West wrote:

Forgot to add the image of Katarina hopping the fence and dancing in the window frame. Pretty sure her cover was that she was a ballerina and that probably confirms that idea. I'm pretty sure that's what they were telling us. and also Red telling Kirk that he wasn't an interloper, he was an assignment, and that Kirk probably was, too.

I also very much agree with this.  ^-^