Honey West # 199 - Yes, frustrating!  When and how was Katarina in southern California?  I got the sense that in Kirk's description, he was talking as if Katarina lived perhaps only a few blocks away from the case study house, and the meant her home with her family.  Nothing he said as such but just a feeling I got.  And given that its a suburban area, maybe makes sense.

But yes how does that all tie in with the timeline?  How young/old was Katarina at the time?  was she KGB?  If Kirk was a mark or target, how does that fit in?  Was she still living with Dom?  if she was older, already an agent, maybe she owned the house?  questions, questions!

The strange thing for me is that this seems to me an entirely new reference.  I don't recall California cropping up before in anyone's story, not in Red's stories about growing up etc.  Kind of a new fact/clue the does not tie in with anything else....yet.

And yes, she could have met Kirk when he was there on business.  makes sense.  That would tend to bolster the idea that she was already an agent then.  

Tuxie400 wrote:

BBB - I think there were eight episodes because NBC is airing Thursday night football for a few weeks.

lara1 -  The geographical implications are growin. I can't remember any other references to California in the BL. I do find it curious they made the Kirk/Katarina memory house a case study house. That has to be some kind of clue, or it is setting the stage for something to come. I also found it curious that Kate was befriended by a bail bondsman from Texas. Was she living in Texas when her head was split open?  The only location we have for Red growing up is Lake Charlevoix, Michigan. So many questions, and so few ideas how this is all linked together.

Tuxie400, agree about the geographical implications and that the case study reference was deliberate - Kirk could have just said, there was this architect house she wanted to see.  Another thing I thought was, were all of the case study houses actually lived in?  Or were some just built as kind of model homes, not intended to be lived in.  If some were model homes only they could be discounted, helping to narrow our identification of the one he was referring to.  Although, from Honey West's information and what I pulled up on the architect and the T. Earle reference, maybe we have already done that!  Still raises a lot of questions.

If Katarina was KGB at the time, I wonder if she worked at the jet propulsion lab to try to gain secrets.  Or was she a double agent?  questions questions!

Last edited by lara1 (11/17/2016 11:37 pm)

Red said that her job was to seduce foreign diplomats and intelligence personnel and get secrets out of them. One of the things they do at one SoCal Navy base is train Navy SEALs and ONI seems to have a presence there. So that would go along with her mission of seducing intelligence personnel.

Daniel Cerone said to pay close attention to the dialogue between Red and Kirk because it provides crucial information and that we should remember it for the future.

I was going through withdraw tonight like many of you I am sure!
And welcome to anyone new!!

So many great comments guys!

I have so much I can say but you all have said so much of what I was thinking except a few things.
I will have to get back with some of that when I have more time.

I cant remember who all said what....but I think it was lara1 and Honey west..

As far as there being any mention of California from Red, there was in Gregory Devry, season 3.
Janet who worked for the FBI was kidnapped, her son was taking Piano lessons.
 Red relocated her to Santa Monica Ca. He said the sunset over the Pacific was magnificant.
So I looked and thery just had a tour in OCt. of the houses there.


I have not had a lot of time to look up pics of these places right now,
but I would think it needs to be on a street since Kirk made it sound like they could just
pull over and look at it and needs to have had a fence in the early 80's that wasnt too high.
Something you could still see the house from the street.
 

Last edited by Eastcoast (11/18/2016 1:32 am)

Yeah, withdrawal alright!  But there has been a good PBS series this week called Soundbreaking about music recording industry that has been totally cool. And it's been on at 10PM. I did watch the Red/Kirk scenes again as recommended by Mr. Cerone. So there was Blacklist on my TV tonight.

So I have been thinking about Red's statement that Elizabeth is his daughter.  Initially, Kirk was asking the wrong question (father).  When he asked the right question (daughter vs father) he got an answer.  Red has said otherwise in the series about people asking the wrong questions.  hmmm

Well my theory for today is that Red is neither  Liz's father nor mother.  Red does not lie to Liz has been re-confirmed show canon:

Red has said that Liz's father is dead.  With no uncertainty, he died in the fire.  That, to me,  was re-confirmed through conversations with Liz in Season 3.

Red has said that Liz's mother is dead - from the very pilot of the series.  He then told her that her mother committed suicide in 1990.  More recently, in 3.17, when they were under siege in the church, and Liz was convinced her mother was the one behind it, Red again said, "Lizzie, your mother is dead."

Then in Cape May we have "katarina" running into the ocean not once, but twice.  And a long monologue about suicide.  And the Hobson's choice.  And katarina telling Red at the end of it that he made the right choice, that he saved Katarina through saving Masha.

I've moved away a little bit from the "mommy" theory though I still think its possible.  but the whole drive in the series thus far seems to be more focused on Liz's father (unknown) vs her mother and why Liz's father is so dangerous.  And we now know that Kirk is not her father, so its not him, unless the writers are really splitting hairs on the word "father'.  Red killed Sam rather than have him reveal the "truth", which seems to be, from what Red has said to Liz, the identity of her father.  So when Sam, (and Dembe and Kaplan) talk about telling the truth to Liz, I don't think they mean to tell her that he (Red) is actually her mother (Katerina).  That' s just my opinion, of course.  I could be wrong.  Maybe the reveal is about both parents.  but it seems so "father" driven, given the fire flashbacks as well.  

So this all adds up to a big question mark.  If one or the other or both parents are still alive (somewhere) I don't believe Red knows this.  He might have begun to suspect that Liz' s mother may be alive. To me Red seemed genuinely surprised when Liz told him that Velov tracked K to a hotel in Prague.  Or maybe he was just surprised that Velov told Liz that.   But Red began to doubt this story when he said to Liz something like, he used to know exactly what happened to K.  And now he's not so sure.

Then we have Kirk saying cryptically to Red in 4.01, "unlike you I would never hurt my own daughter"...

So my theory (for today at least!) is back to the "two Lizzies theory" - that Red had a daughter named Elizabeth and something happened to her.  What, we don't know.  But she may have been hurt or killed as an indirect result of something Red did, or didn't, do.  And there is some connection between her and "Liz" but I don't know what.  And who then is Red?  Still don't know!

All just speculation , of course!  

Last edited by lara1 (11/18/2016 12:46 pm)

BBB #212 - LOL!

Re scheduling, I've read in several places that in the US TBL will return on January 5, at a new time slot of 9PM.  I have not seen anything yet about Redemption scheduling.  My guess is that TBL will air one or two episodes in Jan, and after that,  Redemption will appear following TBL, at 10PM.  But I've not actually read that last bit anywhere, its just a guess based on them moving TBL back to 9PM

Tuxie400 wrote:

BBB - That's great to have a date for Redemption. I haven't seen any specific dates online or on NBC promos yet.

Lara - I'm still leaning toward the mommy theory. My heart just tells me Red is a parent in some way, and if not the father, then the mother. The two Lizzies theory is a close second for me. If Katarina underwent several surgeries to transition into Red, then she did sort of commit suicide on that person. I think Red burned the explanation letter in The Caretaker because he saw how much Liz wanted to believe her mother was looking for her.  If Red is Katarina, that person doesn't ever want Lizzie to know she abandoned her. Even if it was to keep her safe. Red thinks Lizzie would find that abandoment and then withholding the truth truly unforgivable. You are right about Red telling Liz at one point she wasn't asking the right question. (Anyone know what episode that one in. I'd love to know the exact dialog.)  I think the right question could possibly be "Are you my mother?"   

Tuxie400 - what you say makes a lot of sense, especially if the deaths are to be considered figurative and not literal.  Also may tie into that conversation that Liz has with Red at the end of 4.06 about keeping her daughter safe.  And Tom using the word abandonment recently to describe his mother's actions to Liz.  

I think there is stuff throughout the series to support a number of theories, including this one.  for me, Red's interactions with Liz have always seemed man/woman.  And that conversation with Sam in the hospital room about the woman who was, I think, a field hockey player seemed very much a man to man conversation about a woman.  But equally, may not have been exactly that.  There is much open to interpretation.  The biggest question mark for me remains the whole Naomi thing.  

I'm going to try to re-watch some episodes over the break, reversing if you will, the dialog, stories and actions. See where it all comes out with this theory.

Patter - Here's my version of the mommy theory. I'm certainly not sure of it, and I feel crazy even trying to explain it.  The real Raymond Reddington was Lizzie's father, and he died in the fire. Katarina was some sort of spy/agent who infiltrated the KGB. Raymond was either Katarina's handler, or her assignment. I do believe Raymond was the only man Katarina ever loved. She may even have been bisexual, which would explain our Red's women. Katarina took on RR's identity to avenge his death and because she needed his contacts for her ultimate endgame.

While this may seem ludicrous, there are examples all through the history of literature of women masquerading as men in warrior quests. Themes of identity and medical procedures repeat throughout the series. Show runner Eisendrath worked as a writer and producer on Alias, which had Sydney Bristow's Russian spy mother masquerading as a man. I do think Katarina as Red would be the ultimate twist. However, it's not one most fans are willing to accept. Women especially would feel betrayed since they are so in love with Spader's male character. I wonder if the clues are being floated to see what the audience reaction is. As Bokenkamp said awhile back, he doesn't know if Sony and NBC will let him end the series the way he wants to. I took that as the twist being something very controversial and unexpected. Spader has said to enjoy the journey because when you get to the top of Everest it's terrible.

Tuxie400 -much of what you say makes sense.  But I also feel that in a way we've kind of already had that type of story line with The Djinn.  Although a possible Red/Katerina story may be more complex, and maybe there is another layer added to it that we don't see yet.  .that certainly would be complicated!

I'm still open to it, I'm just not really convinced - yet!  LOL