Just finished re-watching, and noted quite a few parallels between other episodes.  First off, there's the Marrakesh reference we picked up on.  Then there's Reddington's repetition of the number for Kirk to call that could save him, much like the number he forks over in Luther Braxton, to the guard, saying money could be his for just a few seconds with the warden.  Cutting to the scene with the Mountain Man where Kaplan has up and left, is a lot like Red doing the same with Dom--Dom comes home from the store, to find the house empty.  And then at the end, when Liz asks about Kirk, Red says "gone" twice, like he did in Madeline Pratt, when they discovered the jig was up, and they'd been double-crossed.  And of course, Kirk and Red having a bit of a chat while the inevitable approaches, is quite reminiscent of Berlin (along with a guy obsessively and aggressively looking into what happened to his daughter) --but I think that one's already been pointed out, too.

Also, I was thinking Liz bringing Red's hat home was a bit more than hoping he'd come and get it--it was perhaps a sign noting that he's welcome in their house, now.  It's a place he can hang his hat, so to speak--with a family; a home.

Also-also, I'm wondering if what Red whispered to Kirk was something along the lines of how the case house was the house he grew up in, and that it was his family inside; that he'd known Katarina from the start, flipping the tables on Kirk, as it were.  That's something that would cause someone to take two steps back, finding out their whole life was a lie--especially with the truth and realization of Elizabeth not being Kirk's daughter.  But I do think that one's still far too early to tell.  That final secret between them.  

Leave it to The Blacklist--answer the question, and leave us with so many more!  :D

Laocoon wrote:

I haven't thought about the Takoma Park house for a while. I'm skeptical that blowing up the house was totally emotional. While I acknowledge Red's feelings, I lean more toward thinking he was leaving no tracks. He acted like he was doing what he had to do. Once the residents moved out and put the house up for sale, he had a chance to completely destroy it and any evidence it held.

That's a great idea!  :D  Figure if Red was willing to kill Sam to cover up the truth potentially being revealed, then blowing up a house, while still difficult, would be easy-peasy, in comparison.  
 

lara1 wrote:

so now I am wrestling with a different issue - in reading the transcript for the second half of episode 4.08, Kirk does most of the talking.  He relays how red had the affair etc (which he also told liz in an earlier episode).    Red never actually acknowledges that (reminds me a bit of how when Liz talks and she has the wrong idea but Red is fine with her keeping that idea and doesn't correct her, or acknowledge whether its right or wrong).
Red never actually talks about an affair, only that he was a target.  Of course if there was no affair, there was no Masha (not with Red in any event) which brings us back to Elizabeth is my daughter (not Masha).  around we go.

But my question is why would Red have an affair, would it not be against his moral code?  He seems to value loyalty above all else, and does not look favorably upon infidelity.  So, Red is married but has an affair?  Maybe that was a lie that Katarina told Konstantin, for whatever reason.  Maybe Red was set up and it was someone else.  Maybe Red is protecting someone else.

Of course anything is possible, any plot line, its left open.  The common consensus I think is that Red and Katarina did have an affair.

Just wondering if anyone else has considered this conflict between Red's moral code and an affair with Katarina...... 

I agree with Tuxie400 on this one, because I don't think Red from all those years ago was 100% the Red we know now.  If anything, it could have been his affair with Katarina and/or others (the petty officer in Luther Braxton, I think fits the timeline for Red to have been married while messing around--and then there's the scientist's wife he admits to having a fling with) that ultimately established his loyalty code.  Figure if it's your bad behavior that leads to such a downfall that it rips your whole family apart and destroys your life, you either adjust your behavior accordingly, or continue on a downward spiral.

Also, I mentioned awhile back and agree with everyone leaning towards Kirk being a civilian, as it were, caught up in the Katarina/Red fiasco.  But, at the same time, it's clear that Kirk was aware of the affair going on.  Given as such, to me, the gun-in-the-mouth incident immediately makes me think of Kirk catching Red in the act of having an affair with Katarina--in their house, perhaps, since he knew of The Summer Palace.  The only reason Kirk wouldn't have pulled the trigger, would be because Katarina was there, begging him not to.  With how much Kirk seems to have legitimately loved Katarina, I think that would have been enough to stop him from ending Red right then and there.  I don't know.  It's the scene that makes the most kind of sense to me.

Also-also, I thought another parallel was the deal where Red won't kill Tom or Kirk out of the respect for the positions they hold in Agnes and Liz's lives--the whole "killing her father would be a mortal sin" bit.  Kirk obviously doesn't have this stipulation, as he was more than willing to kill Red, despite his relationship to Elizabeth.  That could be something Red told Kirk, too, at the end--that Lizzy was still in great danger, that someone against Katarina was coming for her or something, and that he could keep her safe.  That might have been something Kirk hadn't contemplated in his anger, and I believe he loved Katarina enough to want Masha to be safe, despite who her father was.

Tuxie400 wrote:

deadskie - I like your gun-in-the-mouth scenario of Katarina being there when it happened and preventing Constantin from pulling the trigger. 

lara1 and Honey West - I always felt Red was Katarina's handler with Katarina being a double agent. Maybe the affair was a cover for their meetings and there was never really a romance. 

The other question left unanswered at the end of the Kirk arc is why he had to take another name and become another person. What are your thoughts on that?

 

Tuxie400 - that is a good question, why did Kirk need the alias?  that was never explained.  I find in general, there are a lot of questions remaining about the Kirk scenario, at the top of my questions are:

1.  did the affair really happen, was it a cover, did Katarina lie about it, was there an affair with someone else who Katarina (and possibly Red) were protecting, Red never confirmed it?  Was Katarina playing both sides, and did Red and Kirk each have a different version of what really happened?
2.  was this whole scenario (the possible affair, affair with someone else )part of the "betrayal" some of us think happened to Red way back when
3.  Kirk has shown that he can have extremes of emotion - intense jealousy, rage - he was willing to kill himself and his own granddaughter rather than have her be known by Red, which when you think about it, is a bit insane.  And intent on killing Red for having what he thinks was an affair with Katarina.  So - did he have these intense emotions way back when, and was he therefore really mad, bad and dangerous to know - did he really abuse Katarina, yet sees their time together in glowing terms?  Did Red seek to rescue her from a dangerous situation she found herself in, either because of an affair she had with someone else, or with him, or just to ensure her general safety?  Was Red therefore all the more surprised at what he heard Kirk say in their final conversation?
4.  what was his role in fire night if any (I think none, though some of us have previously thought he was there and may have had a "bad" role)

I still wonder whether Red had an affair.  Along he way in the series, we had a couple of clues of unrequited love (one of the paintings we've seen recently had some motif that meant that too); some of us thought that the relationship with Red/Katarina in Cape May was personal and professional but not romantic.

Tuxie400 and deadskie13 - you raise good points about how the Red of now may not be the Red of years ago and he may have only more recently developed his "value loyalty above all else" and views on fidelity.  Its quite possible.
I have thought though that Red always espoused these values, yet whatever happened "that night" the caused him to go "bad", may have bitterly sealed these views with him - as a result of some intense betrayal by someone.

Who knows though, Red also says he was "arrogant" when he was young.  But does that translate into being unfaithful?  I think some of his dalliances he talks about happened either when he was very young (and not yet married) or post the events of "that night".  I could be wrong about that though.  And who knows which stories are real?

So all in all although I feel I got more information and context on part of the Rostov story, for me, a lot of questions remain unanswered, or at least, the answers unconfirmed....

Of course it may be simple and face value.  Red and Katarina had an affair. Kirk found out.  Katarina lied to him about Masha being his child.  The rest is history.  And Kirk now thinks that Red is Masha's father (though Red says Elizabeth).  Simple, right?
Or is it?
 

Last edited by lara1 (11/16/2016 5:38 pm)

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:

All I know is Red (Spader) operates best and creates the most unusual drama when paired with other master actors. We should all be thankful for the amazing job Ulrich Thomsen turned in as Kirk (Constantine). The low-key, semi-rational characters who seem to have a modicum of emotion - they're indeed the scariest ones!

True for Dom (Brian Dennehy) and certainly true for Alan Alda's earlier character.

Looking forward to the winter of our discontent . . . 

BBB - absolutely 100% agree.  The scenes with Ulrich over the last two episodes and particularly that final scene were amazing.    And yes for Dom and for Fitch.  With Fitch, that scene where Red confronts him with what he has found out about Berlin was fantastic.  Also the scene where Red wanted the Cabal's help and Fitch shows up to tell him they turned him down.  Then Lizzie calls and tells him his lead to Berlin is dead.  Talk about Red having a bad day!  then throws the scotch glass into the fireplace.  Great stuff!
 

Last edited by lara1 (11/16/2016 9:30 pm)

lara1 - I'm more inclined to believe Constantin was not Masha/Liz's father. The DNA tests were run twice at the hospital and then again with Constantin's doctor. For me, that's a pretty definitive answer. I think his doctor was just scared to death when Con has his crazy moment.

I don't think Red will ever tell Liz the truth. I think Kaplan will show up at the end of the series and finally tell the whole story, as much as she knows of it, to Liz. 

Tuxie400 #191 -yes, I agree.  I'm just playing around with different theories.  in 4.08, Red says to Dembe that Liz will be safe with Kirk until Kirk discovers that he's not her father.  So, unless Red doesn't know this and someone else does and is somehow running around with means and motive to be manipulating the tests (not very likely) , Kirk is not her father.

Honey West #192.  Thanks for that additional info.  I looked into the architect of La Canada, JR Davidson I think is his name, interesting he was a European architect born in:  Berlin.  Worked in London and in Paris before going to the U.S.  Interesting, no?

Interesting things, lara1 #193-4! I didn't read far enough to get the T. Earle clue. I had always wondered where they came up with that name. Thought it was someone they knew. Don't forget the writers are based in LA, Bokenkamp graduated from USC, etc. So they are all very familiar with the region.

I am currently writing up some Navy and aerospace research, and I will post it in General Discussion, since it's not episode-centric. I've also drawn up a timeline showing world events taking place during the early days as well as more speculation on Jennifer and Carla. Basically that just builds on earlier things I wrote, but in light of recent clues. It is making me realize just how much we still don't know! LOL!

btw - like the information on T. Earle - good find!

Would like to run the following theory on why TBL only ran 8 eps before taking a fall/winter hiatus. Who knows how long?

Major reason immo - the show is at a crossroads, they don't have many extra episodes in the box and its time to evaluate how to extend the show beyond 3 seasons - hopefully six or more!

They've created enough trails, false clues, real clues, possibilities and the like to go any number of ways. But they have to get it right from 2017 (when they return) on.

I suspect the only thing they know (almost for certain) is how they'll end the show - and what kind of reveals they'll disclose about Red, Kirk, Lizzy & Kaplan.

I think the time has arrived to be less over the entire proverbial map and more focused on short story-telling. Involve the wonderful pantheon of superb sub-characters the show has developed but focus on one or two main stories. Don't become Blacklist: Dallas Edition or Who Shot J.R. (aka James Reddington)

Too many great things about this show - and for the love of goodness and all things Mozhan Marno only a few trottleberries.

To me the tendency to go "Dallas" and Megan Boone's lack of chops as an experienced lead actress are the two things the show has to fight. Hope they succeed. Still my second favourite show in last 5 years!

Everyone knows who my favourite was - so no point repeating it!

I think the main reason the show ran 8 episodes is because once they moved it to Thursday nights they knew that in November Thursday night generally becomes a big night for holiday TV stuff. Makes sense because people generally go to holiday parties on Friday nights and Christmas Eve and NYE fall on Saturday this year. Viewership is generally down during Nov and Dec. Many shows had their fall finales last and this week. Plus NBC is going for Thursday Night Football. Football brings in huge audiences for a network. Although I guess football viewership is down this year, I think I read. So it makes sense for a show to go on hiatus this time of the year. That doesn't mean they stop shooting. In fact they are probably happy to be able to get ahead a bit before broadcast resumes on Jan. 5th. I understand they are shooting 4.11 and probably getting into 4.12 this week. They do a 10 day schedule with the first and last two days overlapping the previous and subsequent episodes. I think they get weekends off. And I think it was Amir who said they are off for Thanksgiving and Christmas. They've been shooting live action about a month ahead of air date. Of course, once shot, they go into post-production, I forget how long that lasts, but effects, music, and editing are done during that time. There's an interview somewhere that details the show's schedule, I could look up the link if I wasn't being lazy right now.  Anyway, I'm sure the broadcast break is probably welcome.

And that's probably also why we are not seeing Redemption airing during the hiatus. Viewership.

I think Megan Boone does a great job playing Liz. Her character is probably the most difficult one to portray, especially because she's always kept in the dark about most things and has to deal with the giant persona of Reddington. That's not just the way they are acted, that's the way they are written.

lara1, I am thinking that things that I originally thought may have happened in Russia happened in California. Otherwise the case study house reference makes no sense. If Rostov was in the energy business, he might have a good reason to visit SoCal, as that's a huge oil producing region. I'd give almost anything to know when Katarina joined the KGB. And why. Dom and his family were apparently living there when she met Rostov, unless she was there by herself. Maybe she was going to school there disguised as an exchange student? One night, over dinner, she suggested they go to that house. Aargh! Need. More. Clues!