The Blacklist Refugees » Who, what, when, why, where

Tuxie400 · 5/24/2018 7:09 am

KathyN - Something to keep in mind is all through the show there have been a multitude of redheaded women, a much higher percent than what is in the general population.. Even this season, there were many redheaded older women. reminding us of what Katarina might look like now.

What I wondered in that episode was why RR would have been imprisoned with the old Russian and how he would know this former Russian operative so well. Now I think it's because he is Katarina. Maybe that deaf school teacher was used in identity transfer ops as Katarina's double.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/24/2018 7:11 am)

Honey West · 5/24/2018 1:37 pm

Another thing I have found interesting is Red's associations with grifters and con men. He and Sam went way back. I am thinking that whatever Red's real history is that it is way different than RR's early life. I’m still trying to figure how Dom fits into this con artist past.

Eastcoast · 5/24/2018 10:37 pm

Honey west, I have pondered this one a lot. Maybe he learned a thing or 2 from Sam? He is himself pulling a huge con pretending to be the real RR.

Tuxie, there are a lot of redheads. I do not think they want us to forget about KR.

KathyN, interesting story.

HW, I added to our questions the other day. I have some other Q's in my notes. I will add them as soon as I get a break from RL! It has been a busy time for me.
I will check them out when I get a chance.

Honey West · 5/25/2018 3:33 am

Thanks, Eastcoast!

Tuxie400 · 5/25/2018 10:51 am

Honey West wrote:
Another thing I have found interesting is Red's associations with grifters and con men. He and Sam went way back. I am thinking that whatever Red's real history is that it is way different than RR's early life. I’m still trying to figure how Dom fits into this con artist past.

I would suspect whether Red is Katarina or another imposter, he/she has a grifter background. Back when we thought he was the real RR, I kept wondering if he used grifters in setting up spies.

KathyN · 5/25/2018 1:55 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
KathyN - Something to keep in mind is all through the show there have been a multitude of redheaded women, a much higher percent than what is in the general population.. Even this season, there were many redheaded older women. reminding us of what Katarina might look like now.

Honestly, I haven't been paying that close attention because I don't remember that many of them, I didn't even remember this teacher until I rewatched the episode this week. So I don't know how many of them looked exactly like the actress who played the young Katarina and were KBG agents who had Katarina's file on hand or had other reasons (other than red hair) to believe they could be Katarina. This former spy doesn't have to be Katarina either, but she definitely knew Raymond and Katarina (if she's not her), and seemed to have strong feelings about him, both good and bad, as they sat there together. I watched that youtube clip many times because I see something deeper each time I watch it. The subtext, the things not said (perhaps because Dembe is in the room). The innuendo. When she signs to Red I am grateful and he points back to her that he's grateful. The way he says my daughter, my wife, my life - 3 things FakeRed lost when he became RealRed and the look in his eyes, the overwhelming sadness, her expression in return. Amazing acting, on both their parts. And if she is Kataraina, and if she started her life over, only to have her next daughter kidnapped and taken from her as well - that would be unbearable. I think it would fit the Blacklist profile to have snuck her into an episode where everyone was otherwise focused on Liz's baby story and Tom and Gina and if remembered at all would be remembered for Red's reaction to the file she gave him. I love that about the Blacklist (that they drop hints when they have you otherwise distracted!). It's the classic magician's trick - watch my right hand while I do my work with the left one.

Tatiana · 5/26/2018 3:33 pm

A fan on tumblr posted this. It goes to the question in one of the final frames:

"What is she to you really?"

To ask 'who' is she to you or who are you to her is to ask what the relationship is.

To ask 'what'
is to ask what are you using her for?
what purpose does she hold for you?
what will her role in your life do for you?

So this is where I wonder about Naomi/Carla warning Elizabeth that he is using her for something. What that is, we won't know. But I still think there is something to it.

Last edited by Tatiana (5/26/2018 3:34 pm)

IowaWatcher · 5/26/2018 3:43 pm

Tatiana wrote:
So this is where I wonder about Naomi/Carla warning Elizabeth that he is using her for something. What that is, we won't know. But I still think there is something to it.

I think a partial answer is that he still needs her memories of fire night to unlock a mystery. Maybe the Fulcum was only part of it.

She may have seen "something" or "someone" that would've confirmed something Red needed to know.

Laocoon · 5/27/2018 11:38 am

I agree with IowaWatcher and Tatiana about Red needing Liz to unlock the mystery.

I'm skeptical about the death of Naomi/Carla. Since Jennifer was the one who led Red to the tombstone, AND Jennifer is now working with Liz, I wonder if Naomi/Carla is really dead or if it's a headfake that this new alliance is playing on Red. We also know from Berlin that Naomi/Carla has some pretty good skills at tradecraft, evidenced by her escape using the chicken bone. Ergo, Naomi/Carla could be alive and well and working with the JLiz team.

Given what Red told Kaplan about his concentric circles, he's compartmentalized a lot of information that ties to who he is. Clearly, no one, including Red, has all the info, or he wouldn't be doing all of this. I've often wondered, too, if Katrina is alive and pulling some strings somewhere, whether he is Redarina or not.

Great comments from KathyN and others. Thanks to all for sharing as we all parse these stories from so may unreliable narrators. Lots to think about. I'll continue to ponder these mysteries while gardening and during my summer estivation period, beginning shortly as humid misery is in full force here.

Tatiana · 5/27/2018 2:57 pm

Ahhhhhh! Concentric circles! Excellent memory and that was cause for a great deal of discussion.

You keyed in on something I have yet to being up here:

Actuary

The last few episodes were stuffed with references to how red made a decision. When Sutton Ross had Liz in the interrogation room, when they were trying to flee "he's bluffing" it was as though he was an actuarial making decisions completely devoid of emotion. And based solely on the odds.

Feels capricious.

Honey West · 5/27/2018 6:10 pm

And another take on The Who is Red Question from CinemaBlend. The twin brother theory.

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2426172/why-the-blacklists-reddington-twist-may-not-mean-what-we-thought

Eastcoast · 5/28/2018 1:26 pm

Laocoon wrote:
I agree with IowaWatcher and Tatiana about Red needing Liz to unlock the mystery.

I'm skeptical about the death of Naomi/Carla. Since Jennifer was the one who led Red to the tombstone, AND Jennifer is now working with Liz, I wonder if Naomi/Carla is really dead or if it's a headfake that this new alliance is playing on Red. We also know from Berlin that Naomi/Carla has some pretty good skills at tradecraft, evidenced by her escape using the chicken bone. Ergo, Naomi/Carla could be alive and well and working with the JLiz team.

Given what Red told Kaplan about his concentric circles, he's compartmentalized a lot of information that ties to who he is. Clearly, no one, including Red, has all the info, or he wouldn't be doing all of this. I've often wondered, too, if Katrina is alive and pulling some strings somewhere, whether he is Redarina or not.

Great comments from KathyN and others. Thanks to all for sharing as we all parse these stories from so may unreliable narrators. Lots to think about. I'll continue to ponder these mysteries while gardening and during my summer estivation period, beginning shortly as humid misery is in full force here.

We all should hesitate to believe it until we have proof! If Kaplan were around she could dig it up and look.

The was that Red said, 'this cant be right' made me wonder what was going on right away. I had the feeling that Red had a reason to think differently. He looked a bit bewildered to me.
I thought if she is dead it might be her husband or even Kaplan but we have no reason to believe she was a threat to Liz and for Kaplan to kill her. And Kaplan seamed to like Red knowing what she had done to him and we saw not such thing that I can recall.
A few days ago I wondered if she faked her death so Jennifer would not look for her and learn her new name. That could explain the stone with her name she used before Red gave them new ones.

Eastcoast · 5/28/2018 1:44 pm

Here is another thought I had several times but do not know if I ever expressed it.
Red told her in the Pilot that she was abandoned by her father who was a career criminal.
If she killed her father he didn't abandon her and as far as we know RR was not a career criminal, he was a well respected Naval Officer. Red on the other hand is a criminal. So I still have to wonder if he is her real father somehow?

Tatiana · 5/28/2018 4:12 pm

Quite the contradiction. But this story is full of parallels and contradictions!

lara1 · 5/28/2018 5:01 pm

eastcoast #92 - very good point. the grave said Naomi Hyland, didn't it and that was no longer her name when she died, if she died. Unless that was just poetic license, so that we would know immediately that it was Naomi's grave. I do agree, though that Red seemed surprised.

That scene still reminds me though of the ghost of christmas future in The Christmas Carol. The ghost brings Scrooge to his (future) grave, and Scrooge's response is similar, something like, oh this can't be, spirit, say it is not so. Red, like Ebenezer, has a lot of sins to atone for. Though of a different nature.

lara1 · 5/28/2018 5:03 pm

eastcoast #93 - I don't think we know who Liz's father is, as yet. We only know its the person whose blood was on that shirt. Could be RR, could be someone else.

Tatiana · 5/28/2018 5:09 pm

lara1 wrote:
eastcoast #92 - very good point. the grave said Naomi Hyland, didn't it and that was no longer her name when she died, if she died. Unless that was just poetic license, so that we would know immediately that it was Naomi's grave. I do agree, though that Red seemed surprised.

That scene still reminds me though of the ghost of christmas future in The Christmas Carol. The ghost brings Scrooge to his (future) grave, and Scrooge's response is similar, something like, oh this can't be, spirit, say it is not so. Red, like Ebenezer, has a lot of sins to atone for. Though of a different nature.

Interesting observation about A Christmas Carol.

There's still something very unemotional about his response to me though, almost as though he would send his accountant back to the ledger, " This isn't right. You put the entry in the wrong column and now the numbers are all off.

Tatiana · 5/29/2018 9:41 pm

Re watching Cape May. Wow, what an incredible script.
He says to Katarina "I was arrogant" thinking he could raise the child.

I had forgotten about that. And the term he uses, same, arrogant, when talking with Dom.

He goes to Cape May after Liz dies because that is where he made his Hobson's Choice. Only Katarina would know to go there. Only she would know of the locket.

Then Katarina appears when he stoops down to clean the locket: "You had no choice, it was me or Masha". "I'm sorry" "You did save me through Masha. You chose well"

I see that moment when she strokes his face as the older Katarina reassuring today's Red that he made the right choice.

Eastcoast · 5/30/2018 12:59 am

Tatiana wrote:
Eastcoast wrote:
I started my re-watch and I decided to do it differently this time. I would recommend that everyone try this one thing. I wanted to watch it with a timeline in mind to see if my ideas would be the same or different.
So I watched The Requiem first. This way I had the background before he turned himself in.
I watched the parts with her as a child and the part just before Red turns himself in.

That's a good approach. I need to re-watch. When Requiem first came out, I was very doubtful that Mr. Kaplan's memory was reliable. But maybe it is. Looking forward to your comments!

I remember the writers saying that her memories were correct or something to that effect. But who knows anymore what to believe from any of them anymore?

I do not have time to write out everything I am thinking right now but these are just a few points.

When you look at all the stuff that happened before the Pilot and so on, Requiem, the fire, flashbacks it takes on a different twist for me.
When we first saw Dembe they look like they have not seen each other in a while. Now we can see a plan they hatched. Although we knew that when we saw it the first time, watching it in order changes the time frame in your head what is going on. It hasn't been many days since they have seen each other.

When you see them at dinner in the Freelancer and Red is telling her 'what if I were to tell you that all the things you've come to believe about yourself are a lie', and now we know it was and that he has been living as someone else.

Edited to add... It really made him look a bit creepy?

I am trying to keep in mind as I watch that, It is a secret not a lie.
&
I think JB said One of the reasons he came back into her life was because of the suitcase.

RL has been crazy!!

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/30/2018 1:02 am)

Tuxie400 · 5/30/2018 9:33 am

Tatiana wrote:
Re watching Cape May. Wow, what an incredible script.
He says to Katarina "I was arrogant" thinking he could raise the child.

I had forgotten about that. And the term he uses, same, arrogant, when talking with Dom.

He goes to Cape May after Liz dies because that is where he made his Hobson's Choice. Only Katarina would know to go there. Only she would know of the locket.

Then Katarina appears when he stoops down to clean the locket: "You had no choice, it was me or Masha". "I'm sorry" "You did save me through Masha. You chose well"

I see that moment when she strokes his face as the older Katarina reassuring today's Red that he made the right choice.

I have some of the same thoughts about Cape May, and have had them since the end of Season 3. We think of men as arrogant, but Katarina, queen of the spies and master strategist, was the arrogant one. It was her Hobson's choice. The locket meant so much to Katarina because it was from her father. Red never gave it to Dom, because it belonged to him.