deadskie13 #39 - what you say makes a lot of sense in terms of Red's motivations and why he doesn't consider himself to be Liz's "father".  I feel that there is a big play being made on the distinction between Red's being a "father" to Liz and Liz being a "daughter" to him. It also aligns with how Red gave Liz a talking down in T. Earle King after she saved his life and he told her to never do that again.  And his reactions toward  her in the Kirk hunt, one of which you mentioned.  and he promised Sam before he killed him that Sam would always be her father and I believe that Red loved Sam very deeply.

I'm not unhappy with a father resolution as I do feel Red's feelings and concerns about Liz are paternal in nature but I also do feel it would be more interesting if they had a secondary connection somehow, and that by Red re-entering Liz's life, and spending more time with her, getting to know her etc., he grew to love her deeply as  a daughter - whether through an "advanced" case of "harbormaster syndrome" or that he considered her his second chance at a father/daughter type relationship after the loss of his own daughter, or whatever.  That Liz awoke something deep inside him that had long been buried and that maybe he never thought he would see or feel again, even if he had problems admitting that to himself.  Just my own preference, LOL

Last edited by lara1 (11/20/2016 11:22 pm)

HI Tuxie400 - I was wondering whether you are still contemplating Katarina as Red, or are you now thinking in another direction?  

I haven't started my re-watch of the series yet (RL has kept me mega busy) but plan to do so later this week.  

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 - Since 4.8 aired, I've rewatched several episodes from the end of Seasons 1 and the beginning of Season 2. I didn't see any indications or clues in those 10 episodes that Red might really be a woman.  I've been watching with both the mommy theory and the daddy theory in mind. There were several instances of Red watching women walk away in a very masculine/leering way and a reference to a weekend with some snow bunnies. If Red is Katarina, he's overcompensating big time to be believable in a male role. I haven't ruled out the mommy theory, but at this time I'm 50 percent mommy theory and 50 percent daddy belief. All I can say is I definitely believe Red is somehow Liz's parent.

HI Tuxie400, that's interesting.  Yes, I do remember several instances of Red "ogling" women, including one scene while on his jet.  Then there is the scene early on in Season 1, where Luili (I think I may have got the spelling wrong) casually wanders into the kitchen where Red is staying, to pour some coffee, wearing only Red's shirt.  Make of that what you will - maybe she did just borrow his shirt!  LOL

I will be re-watching with both in mind plus my own theory (Red is somehow connected to his "lost" daughter through Liz - how I don't know).

I also think that some of the dialog in Season 3 has a lot of information, that's really when Red starts talking a bit more to Liz about her parents, and particularly, her mother.  Though it remains cryptic.  I'm still not sure what he meant when he looked away in the distance while Liz talked of her "dream" of walking in the park, holding her daughter's hand and never letting go.  And later in that episode, when Red said to Liz, when she noticed he had been lost in his own thoughts, that her fantasy is "how it should be".  But I guess it will be a while until we know what was pre-occupying his thoughts - memories of Liz, or of his own daughter - whom Kirk said that Red had hurt in some way...





 

Honey West wrote:

I had a new thought about Red's admission that "yes, Elizabeth is my daughter." It has occurred to me that it might be the way he said it, he never said he was her father, only that she was his daughter. In my current rewatch where I am finally to the Kingmaker, I just got past the Swan Lake thing again. With the program dated March 22, 1987. Now we know the girl dancing in Red's memory can't possibly be Liz, she would only have been two years old and was living with Constantin and Katarina. Red would have been 27. If we figure that he graduated from the naval academy in 1983, and being married gets you expelled, then if he has a daughter in 1987 who is old enough to be dancing in a ballet school production of Swan Lake, then that girl had to have been born while he was still in school, or maybe even earlier than that. The big question is what happened to her. Is she Jennifer or not? Was there a terrible tragedy about something that happened to her and how much truth was in the story he told to Madeline Pratt? I am inclined to think that was a true story that he told her. Of course he didn't go into detail about what he actually found at the house besides blood everywhere.

So the crazy idea I had was what if Liz is somehow a repository for this daughter's memories? When her own were erased, suppose there was something done where she has the other girl's memories, but can't remember them, of course. But they are there, and so, to Red, she Is his daughter, because that is all that is left of her. I dunno, but lara1, you got me thinking about this. Maybe these partially accessible memories are what she keeps seeing in her flashbacks?

I'm not saying that I think this is the explanation, but it just popped into my head as an interesting idea, if nothing else to maybe explain why Red is not her father, but she is his daughter. (unsure)

Ah, Honey West, you were up late!  even for West Coast time!  

Well those are my thoughts - that somehow Liz has something of Red or Red's "lost" daughter, that somehow connects Liz to Red's "real" daughter, so to him, she is his daughter., or what remains of her.  I was thinking something like DNA but I really like your idea of the memories of Red's real daughter being Liz's memories, especially the fire memory.  And if the fire memory was a planted one, i.e. it happened to Red's daughter in that way, that is interesting.  One thing I never figured out from the fire memories is that whoever is leading Liz out seems to drop her hand or she otherwise somehow seems trapped in the house as she sees the men leave, with the fire around her.  The girl outside looking back at her seems to be someone else.

So is that why "two girls" seem to be in the closet in that one scene, with one kind of like a ghostly image.  And two girls in the flashbacks, wearing very similar but different clothes?   And "Liz's" hair sometimes looking light, like bubble girl, sometimes darker like little Masha?

Or maybe there really was no fire as Kirk said -that involved "real" Masha - Liz/Masha is remembering Liz's memories of the fire - Liz was there but Masha was not?.   So when the "mother" voice was asking for Masha, and the "father" voice was saying her name is Elizabeth, was that another argument?  or is Liz/Masha fusing memories of both Masha and Red's real daughter in that flashback?

Then when you think about it and various scenes with that in mind, especially things like the music box scene, is Red remembering/thinking/upset about things he remembers of his "real" daughter, is that why it is all complicated, is that why Red grieves the "death" of Liz so deeply?

Might also speak to Red's deep upset when Liz seemed to remember shooting her "father" - as if Red was also worried she remembered something "else" - was that the something else?

LOL that is really intriguing when you start to think about it.  

Of course, as I think you say Honey West, that might not be it at all but I love thinking about it.  There is no emoticon to display how much I am smiling right now!

LOL - later on I'll probably think of something that blows up that theory but who knows!!
 

Last edited by lara1 (12/03/2016 10:28 am)

You know, lara1 and Tuxie400, even if that memory implant thing is only just a kooky idea, it still doesn't mean that Red is not her actual father. For all we know Red could have been a real ladies man back then and has more adult kids than he might even know about.  (whistling)

Then again, the idea that Liz might be carrying someone else's memories might not be too far fetched if you buy into the idea that a person's real memories can be manipulated or even erased. Then you get into the nature of memory itself, and what are our memories made of, really?

And, I agree, lara1, that could also be why Red was so upset over losing Liz. Not just because he loves her and feels her loss so deeply, but maybe if she is carrying the memories of another lost person he cares about, that would have been a double whammy. Maybe the other memory is not of his other child, but they are Katarina's? I'm also really starting to think that Dom and his family may have been Soviet sleeper agents. It might explain what Katarina was doing living in SoCal near one of those case study houses. That was no accidental clue that we were given by Kirk, but an important one.

Hello Everyone and hope all is well!

Finally catching up on reading so many great posts. The DNA and implanted memories triggered a memory of my own. There was a movie called "Godsend" that came out in 2004 about a couple who had their deceased son cloned. But eventually the cloned son began to behave differently from the original son, including having memories of things that never happened to him. May have been memories of a fire too!

Turns out the doctor who did the cloning had his own deceased son and combined the DNA from both sons. Two sons and their memories into one body. That way the doctor's son could live on too.

Now that I gave away the movie's plot twist, I can't remember how the movie actually ends. Doubt it was happily ever after though.

Colleen - Welcome back! The information about Godsend was very interesting. I looked it up, and the doctor who cloned the boy mixed DNA from the couple's son with his own evil dead son's. The boy had night terrors and memories of the doctor's son, who died in a fire.

Along the lines of cloning, I ran across a 2009 article about a scientist who was trying to clone a 10-year-old girl named Cady who died in a car accident.

Here's the text from part of the article:CADY, THE LITTLE GIRL KILLED IN 2002 CAR CRASH WHO COULD 'LIVE' AGAIN AS A CLONEShe died at the age of ten in a horrific car crash, but now the little girl known only as Cady could be brought back to life by controversial fertility expert Panayiotis Zavos.He froze some of her blood cells after her death in August 2002, and combined them with cow eggs to create a human-animal hybrid embryo.  Cady's mother said she was happy for the cells to be implanted in a human womb if there was a chance of a clone of her child being born.Life after death: Cady, seen here as a baby, died when she was ten but could be recreated as a clone'Cady was simply everything to me,' she said.'If there is one chance in a billion that it would work, of course I want to do that.'This is for Cady. This is a mother expressing love for a daughter and trying to give her daughter life. What I am doing is trying to give her biological presence in this world continuation.'Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1172487/Ive-cloned-human-Astonishing-claims-doctor-implanted-embryos-women.html#ixzz4Rsu14yE4 

Tuxie400 # 55 and #56 - really interesting stuff.  I think the clue to it all is definitely in the series already, but there are so many different avenues!  Then there was The Longevity Initiative which really fascinated me, with the doctor who was seeking to restore his fiancee's brain function, but also researched other stuff, like a type of jellyfish which can basically re-create itself by reversing its own life i.e., reverse back into a baby jellyfish (whatever that is called!, I forget) as a survival mechanism.  I still remember the haunted look on Red's face when he entered the research doctor's house in that episode and the doctor started explaining what happened to his fiancee.  He had left the house exactly as it was on that date - nothing had changed like a time capsule.

Also reminded me of "the flat" in a way, which is kind of like an eighties time capsule, not that everything is from the eighties but its like someone has not lived there for 25 years or so.  That made me think whether something of Katarina had been preserved in Liz (eg memories).

Interesting....

Last edited by lara1 (12/06/2016 7:58 pm)

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 - I just rewatched The Longevity Initiative last weekend. Maybe the haunted look was because Red was hoping the jellyfish research might help not only Liz, but also Josephine.

Yes, good point I wondered that....when he spoke to the doctor, he only mentioned a young woman he cared for, who had memory issues.  It could have been either Liz or Josephine (in a different sense), or both.......

But I do wonder if "the flat" was Katarina's and Red just keeps it just as it was.....but who knows, as there is some Red kind of stuff there too (record player for instance)......One day maybe we will find out.....