Tatiana wrote:

I think we can say the orthodox Christmas can be debunked.

Here's two things that pop out to me:

1. The trigger for Red's disappearance is not fire night, but increasing pressure and threats culminating in the death of one of his associates by the stewmaker December 1990.

2. Can we suppose that Liz lived with Red at explosion house until 1988, then she was taken away by Katarina. How to explain growth chart up until 3 years old?

I'm not following your train on thought on either of the two things that pop out at you. Are you saying Berlin's daughter was one of Red's associates?  Explain a little more of your thinking on this one.

I cannot suppose Liz lived at the explosion house until 1988, although she might have been there for brief visits.
 

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/05/2018 10:52 am)

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana wrote:

I think we can say the orthodox Christmas can be debunked.

Here's two things that pop out to me:

1. The trigger for Red's disappearance is not fire night, but increasing pressure and threats culminating in the death of one of his associates by the stewmaker December 1990.

2. Can we suppose that Liz lived with Red at explosion house until 1988, then she was taken away by Katarina. How to explain growth chart up until 3 years old?

I'm not following your train on thought on either of the two things that pop out at you. Are you saying Berlin's daughter was one of Red's associates? I cannot suppose Liz lived at the explosion house until 1988, although she might have been there for brief visits.
 

Tuxie, that photo was left on the body of one of Red's associates. I assume the associate was killed by the stewmaker. The photo is of Berlin's daughter, yes, but it's kind of a 'holding' place for Red's associate, if that makes any sense. So you can extrapolate that the associate may have been killed at that time. To add another level of complication though, it was all schemed by Fitch to create animosity between Berlin and Red.

As for the Takoma house and Liz, I was thinking that Liz may have lived there more or less part-time, kind of like a joint custody. Then she was removed from Takoma house permanently at age 3 in 1988 and that caused Red to eventually kidnap her from the Summer Palace and brought her to the condo/townhome where the fire happened.
 

Tatiana - If the associate had been killed by the Stewmaker, wouldn't he have been stewed?  I thought the Stewmaker just specialized in getting rid of bodies until Liz. Wasn't that in her conversation with Stew that he hadn't killed anybody before?  I thought Fitch set Berlin on Red because of the fulcrum.

What episode do we get the info about the photograph and the associate? I don't remember that. 

I'm sure of it, the photo was on the body of his associate's body as a warning to him, Red. It would have been sometime after 'The Stewmaker'. I wish I could tell you which episode that is...

It's from 'The Decembrist'

So here's my thought:

Berlin's daughter has a date of 12/1990 on her photo
Red 'disappeared' 12/1990
Red was given this photo as a 'calling card' on the body of one of his associates: a warning

If we are to assume any of these facts are true, then Red's associate was killed some time in December 1990. As he tells Fitch, Red reminds Fitch of that treaty: “I don’t go after you, you don’t go after me.” But Red is just a young buck, and Fitch tells him that Berlin far predates their agreement. So Red takes him to Red’s Story Corner: A long time ago, someone left a picture of a girl on the body of an associate of his. Red it traced back to the Stewmaker (whom you may remember from your nightmares). The Stewmaker told him that the girl was sent to him by a man he’d never met. She was told she needed to disappear—so he took a picture of her appearing to be dead, and sent it to her father in prison.That mystery man was Fitch, and Red tells him that because of his actions as the Decembrist, Berlin is coming for him. Fitch reminds Red that he’s been protecting the criminal all these years; without Fitch, Red’s associates will likely pounce him: “This is as much your problem as it is mine.”

Here's the full exchange between Red and Fitch from our mother group! The Blacklist Support Group (when Chompstick did summaries of each episode)

“We had an agreement. I don’t come after you, you don’t come after me. You ordered the bombing in Kursk. Then you pinned it on me. You blamed me for killing his daughter," Red says. He continues, "Some years ago, a copy of this photo was left on the corpse of an associate of mine. Taking it as a warning, I traced the girl to a man they call The Stewmaker. He told me a story about the girl. She was sent to him by a man she'd never met. She was in trouble, needed to disappear, so he took her photo, put it in a locket, and sent it to her father. All those years spent searching for the man who supposedly murdered his daughter, and it was you. You sat here in this very room and pretended you had no idea who Berlin was or why he was coming for me. He was coming, Alan, because you sent him.”

Fitch counters, “Let me remind you, you stole some very damaging information about us when you disappeared. . . I got the others to hold off, but Milos Kirchhoff, Berlin, whatever the hell name he's using, he chewed through the leash. I couldn't stop him. You have no allies in my group. Without me to protect you, they'll take you down and they'll let the chips fall where they may. So this is as much your problem as it is mine." 

Sorry I repeated so much of what had lara1 and tatiana posted. I was researching and writing while they were posting.

Thanks, Tuxie, for reminding us of all the details.

I had the impression that Berlin helped his daughter escape from jail, but that Fitch helped her escape from Berlin.  I thought that Fitch had helped arrange the whole Stewmaker thing and for Zoe's new identity.  As to why the Stewmaker would be involved, I assumed he was paid well.  I always had the impression that the Zoe/Stewmaker thing happened after Dec 1990; that's why it was out of order when placed in the album.  The date was the warning.  I assumed Red knew somehow that the dated polaroid was the work of the Stewmaker, like one of those things that Red just seems to know.  Just my own take on things.  But I agree with raising the question.

And you reminded me of the parallel locket!  The one Berlin had, the one he left for Red with the POLAROID of Naomi, and then the KR locket.  You mentioned a locket link recently but I forgot what that was.  LOL. we have been an active bunch the last few days!  

Last edited by lara1 (3/05/2018 4:59 pm)

lara1 said:  I had the impression that Berlin helped his daughter escape from jail, but that Fitch helped her escape from Berlin. 

That makes sense. I mentioned a locket in connection with Oliver Twist: Tom as the artful doger, a character named Fagen, and Red's using a network of street people as spies. The locket, which belonged to Oliver Twist's mother, solved the mystery of his family at the end of the story.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/05/2018 5:03 pm)