The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 5.14 - Mr. Raleigh Sinclair III

Big Badd Bazzer · 3/06/2018 10:43 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
Maybe we're looking at the doopleganger issue the wrong way. What if Red has recruited "The FACE-LIFTER" to replicate some of his enemies - for instance creating a Garvey replicant after burying the real threat Garvey . . . . . also some of his task force including that annoying middle-aged woman with the glasses!
BBB - Do you think that annoying older woman with the glasses is the alternate Kaplan?

She is definitely the alternate Kaplan . . . . although I liked Mr. Kaplan I don't like the alternate - - - - mainly because thus far she's just been unfurled as a nameless cling-on in the Garvey posse - - - I reserve the right to change my mind if the writers/producers decide to thicken her character - but with so many characters and plot-lines on their plate - I seriously doubt they have time to do such!

Big Badd Bazzer · 3/06/2018 10:49 am

I also think Red will deploy Black Liz (Super-Killer/Avenger version) to bury the proof of what he's hiding fro Liz.

The ultimate punch-line and series-ender would be for Liz to give Red a rather forlorn look - and simply tell him "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG" . . . .you want it darker, just kill the flame - and the series ends with the Leonard Cohen song "YOU WANT IT DARKER?"

lara1 · 3/06/2018 11:10 am

BBB - what did you think of Singleton? sorry if you posted on this and I missed it.

I really like the character, I thought he brought a hint of fresh air to the Post Office, I think he is also well played by the actor. I wish we could see more of him, I kind of think the PO could use some new blood - same folks for several seasons now. But I don't think they could do that without greatly diminishing, or eliminating, one of the existing Post Office folks. I feel like Singleton may become a casualty.

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 11:20 am

I was just telling my husband I thought Red would use Ian Garvey's expertise to either create a second Garvey or create a second Liz so that she could go on the streets, slice up the guy for revenge, and come up clean because she has a tight alibi. Remember in the preview, Red tells Lizzie basically, you don't do it by the book, you do it by the street (revenge on dirty cops).

So the arsonist will likely come into play as well. What I did not know is that while bones survive fire and can be identified closely to the decedent, there is no current technology that can identify the DNA from bones that have been through a fire. The study I read used the average temperature of regular fires but even used fires at lower temperatures and found that the DNA broke down relatively early in the burn process. Interesting, huh?

So when looking at remains that survive a fire, to identify the victim they use dental records, bone history/replacements/breaks, and not much else.

lara1 · 3/06/2018 11:32 am

I wanted to tie in one of the books Red mentions with Sinclair to the overall mythology. Aiding and Abetting by Muriel Spark, referenced a real life murder and disappearance, that of Lord Lucan (technically, the 7th Earl of Lucan). This was a real, big thing in England, I remember it coming up numerous times while I was there.

Lord Lucan was an aristocrat who was known for, among other things, his expensive and meticulous tastes. Long story short, in 1974 in the midst of a bitter child custody dispute with his then wife, the family nanny was found bludgeoned o death in the basement of the family home and his wife injured(I believe that his wife was the actual intended target) -( Lucan's wife told the police that Lucan had committed the crimes and he was later convicted in absentia as the result of an inquest). Following the event , Lucan then drove a car into the rural countryside and abandoned the car and disappeared. The police found blood stains in the car, along with what appeared to be the murder weapon.

OVer the years there were several "sightings" of Lucan by various people in various places but none could be substantiated (remind you of anyone??). He was never found and in 2016, he was declared presumed dead, and a death certificate issued.

The fictional book by Muriel Spark draws on this, it involves what I believe is a fraudulent psychiatrist in Paris, and two patients, each of which claim to be the real Lord Lucan.

So the similarities to the doppleganger thing are obvious, but there are parallels to the overall TBL story as well. Additionally, the nanny in the real event had a child that she considered giving up for adoption (her parents ultimately adopted the child), and she later married a Royal Navy seaman.

The death certificate issuance also reminded me of Scotty ultimately signing Tom's (Christopher Hargrave's) death certificate in Redemption, after all of his years missing and presumed dead.

Last edited by lara1 (3/06/2018 11:51 am)

lara1 · 3/06/2018 11:47 am

Here are a couple more interesting things from the Lucan case -

When police entered the premises of where Lucan was living at the time, on his bedside table they found a book on Greek shipping millionaires, as well as a pair of glasses, license, passport etc., and his Mercedes parked outside. (the car he drove and abandoned in the countryside was a different car)

His wife was treated at St. George's Hospital following the event.

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 12:03 pm

Lara - I honestly have to laugh, the parallels are striking! Down to the Mercedes for pizza's sake lol. I know it's not funny, but now I have to look up Lucan :-)

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 12:15 pm

I did a little bit of look up of my own on the authors/writings they discussed:

I've heard whispers of your work for years now stories of your legerdemain, your ability to put a man in two places at once.
The concept of bilocation is appealing even if not without consequence.
I suspect you're a fan of quantum theory.
I've read quite a bit of Schrodinger myself.
I'm more a Dostoyevsky man.
[LAUGHING] Yes, of course.
"The Double.
I love a good doppelganger story.
What about Ursula Le Guin? Oh! "A Wizard of Earthsea"? [LAUGHS] - Yes, yes.
A delightful tale.
And "Aiding and Abetting. - By Muriel Spark.

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 12:36 pm

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
I also think Red will deploy Black Liz (Super-Killer/Avenger version) to bury the proof of what he's hiding fro Liz.

The ultimate punch-line and series-ender would be for Liz to give Red a rather forlorn look - and simply tell him "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG" . . . .you want it darker, just kill the flame - and the series ends with the Leonard Cohen song "YOU WANT IT DARKER?"

BBB - Liz is a profiler - so that line would be fitting, and I'm always up for a good Leonard Cohen song!

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 12:37 pm

lara1 wrote:
BBB - what did you think of Singleton? sorry if you posted on this and I missed it.

I really like the character, I thought he brought a hint of fresh air to the Post Office, I think he is also well played by the actor. I wish we could see more of him, I kind of think the PO could use some new blood - same folks for several seasons now. But I don't think they could do that without greatly diminishing, or eliminating, one of the existing Post Office folks. I feel like Singleton may become a casualty.

Sadly, Singleton's days are probably numbered. I like the Alternate Dembe a lot!

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 12:47 pm

As long as we're discussing Red's Book Club, I'll throw a couple of other things out there. Remember when Red was talking about loving treasure hunts and mentioned Robert Louis Stevenson and Edgar Allan Poe? Those are always two of the foremost authors mentioned when discussing works that feature doubles and doppelgangers. Poe’s William Wilson spins an eerie doppelganger tale, while Stevenson’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde provides the literary model for multiple personalities and the shadow self

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2018 1:12 pm)

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 12:50 pm

Bilocation, quantum theory, and Schroedinger:
"One mind-boggling consequence of quantum physics is that atoms and subatomic particles can actually exist in states known as "superpositions," meaning they could literally be located in two or more places at once, for instance, until "observed" — that is, until they interact with surrounding particles in some way. This concept is often illustrated using an analogy called Schrödinger's cat, in which a cat is both dead and alive until beheld."
Interestingly, Madeleine l'Engle wrote "A Wrinkle in Time" after reading about Albert Einstein and quantum theory.

Last edited by Tatiana (3/06/2018 12:51 pm)

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 12:54 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
As long as we're discussing Red's Book Club, I'll throw a couple of other things out there. Remember when Red was talking about loving treasure hunts and mentioned Robert Louis Stevenson and Edgar Allan Poe? Those are always two of the foremost authors mentioned when discussing works that featue doubles and doppelgangers. Poe’s William Wilson spins an eerie doppelganger tale, while Stevenson’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde provides the literary model for multiple personalities and the shadow self

Agreed. Of course, Dostoevsky's The Double and Ursula Le Guin's "The Wizard of Earthsea" also deal with doppleganger/shadow selves.... the light and darkness within one person.

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 1:11 pm

lara1 - Aiding and Abetting - all roads lead to the Blackist. Why didn't you bold the word nanny? I looked up the info too. And it sounded so good, I ordered the audio book! One of the Lucans posed as a priest and talked to the psychiatrist endlessly about blood and religious purification. That reminded me of Tommy Wattles. LOL What's interesting to me is the accidental death of the nanny when Lucan is really going for the wife. I still think Red's whole shame deal with the truth and the bones involves an accidental death because he couldn't see clearly. (The accidental shooting of Anthony in the smoky Invisible Hand scene.)

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/11/2019 10:29 am)

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 1:41 pm

Getting back to the Russian Easter egg with the tulip design, I did some more research on tulips. The tulip on the egg is mostly while, but it does seem to have purple at the base and some pink on the sides of the petals. Tulips in general are a symbol of perfect love. White tuliips signify forgiveness, and varigated, or multicolor tulips signify beautiful eyes.

There is a Turkish legend that explains the origin of red tulips that sounds like Romeo and Juliet or the legend about Leander:Farhad is a stone cutter and Shirin is a princess. He tries to win her over and she rejects him, so he goes to the hills to play music to honor her. When she learns this, she falls in love with him. However, her father isn’t pleased that she’s fallen in love with a commoner, and tasks him with digging a giant canal to prove his love.After years, Farhad nearly finishes the canal, so Shirin’s father sends a courtesan to convince Farhad that Shirin is dead. He is so distraught that he takes his life. When Shinrin learns of this, she goes to find him and takes her own life to be with him. Red tulips grow where their blood hits the ground as symbols that their love will last forever.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2018 1:41 pm)

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 1:42 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
...One of the Lucans posed as a priest and talked to the psychiatrist endlessly about blood and religious purification. That reminded me of Tommy Wattles. LOL ... I still think Red's whole shame deal with the truth and the bones involves and accidental death because he couldn't see clearly. (The accidental shooting of Anthony in the smoky Invisible Hand scene.)

I love it!

Eastcoast · 3/06/2018 1:56 pm

Someone had asked about the Tulip design on the egg, But I don't remember who it was and I didn't have time to answer it when I saw it. But Tuxie just reminded me.

I believe that was when we saw Liz go to the daughter of Velov to give her the letter.

Tatiana · 3/06/2018 2:03 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
Someone had asked about the Tulip design on the egg, But I don't remember who it was and I didn't have time to answer it when I saw it. But Tuxie just reminded me.

I believe that was when we saw Liz go to the daughter of Velov to give her the letter.

That's what I remember too,

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2018 2:17 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
Someone had asked about the Tulip design on the egg, But I don't remember who it was and I didn't have time to answer it when I saw it. But Tuxie just reminded me.

I believe that was when we saw Liz go to the daughter of Velov to give her the letter.

Don't you have a great memory! I went back and looked at The Caretaker for the Velov/daughter scenes. There's a plate with red tulips at Velov's house, and a blue piece of artwork with tulips at Velov's daughter's house. So the tulip is associated with Liz finding out info about her mother and with the forgiveness theme. Liz says, Forgiveness can't change the past, but it can change the future. Red, Velov and Liz say "Some things can't be forgiven."

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2018 2:59 pm)

Big Badd Bazzer · 3/06/2018 3:09 pm

lara1 wrote:
BBB - what did you think of Singleton? sorry if you posted on this and I missed it.

I really like the character, I thought he brought a hint of fresh air to the Post Office, I think he is also well played by the actor. I wish we could see more of him, I kind of think the PO could use some new blood - same folks for several seasons now. But I don't think they could do that without greatly diminishing, or eliminating, one of the existing Post Office folks. I feel like Singleton may become a casualty.

I agree Singleton is superbly played by his actor. Started off as an obvious big bad then pivoted to being part of Garvey's ATF (Alternative Task Force) - stepped into Liz's personal space and when finally caught with his hands in Black Liz's cookie jar - he talks some "Tom Keen Lingo" and is suddenly part of the Post Office. The writers have a gift her because Singleton is obviously the swing person between the two "task forces". The gift is they can take him either way - either maintaining an alliance w/ Team Red or going DOUBLE AGENT MAN - and reverting back with Garvey's ATF . . . . . . either way I don't see him surviving!
There's gonna be some carnage coming down the pike - Team Garvey is being "plumped up" for slaughter by any combination of Team Red (prolly Liz, Ressler & Dembe inflict the most damage)