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Eastcoast wrote:
The only other thing I came up with today as I was pondering is that they are Naomi? Which would mean, who was pretending to be Naomi? KR?
I've also considered that the bones might be Carla Reddington's. Could Carla have accidentally been shot and killed that night in the fire, either by Masha or Raymond? Maybe she was the one who died when there was nothing but blood in the house that Christmas Eve. Or it could have been her who died in the fire.
Tessa of Criminally Sane's theory for a long time is that KR was always the real wife of RR and was hiding in witness protection as Carla/Naomi. I've had a hard time wrapping my head around that because I thought Katarina would have been more skillful in manipulating and escaping from her kidnappers. I would have expected more than just the chicken bone attempt. Of course, with that many years in Witsec, she might have been out of practice.
Well as most of you probably know, I can’t get behind the Red as Katarina theory because of too many biological things (height difference, bone structure, need for regular hormones, etc) that we would have to suspend disbelief on to a degree that isn’t usual for the Blacklist. Plus I don’t think Dom’s interactions with Red would be that way if he were Katarina.
Anyway, as for the bones being Jennifer, I don’t think there would be a reason for her DNA to be in CODIS. She didn’t commit any crimes (as far as we know). She isn’t considered a missing person. She told her mother she was walking away. And WITSEC isn’t going to hold your hand. If you walk away, they don’t beg you to stay or go hunting for you unless they believe you were a victim of a crime. Which doesn’t sound like that is the case.
Last edited by Brittany (2/11/2018 11:32 am)
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I would think Witsec would be particularly interested in Jennifer disappearing because Reddington is her father, and he was fugitive on federal treason charges. Again, I don't think the bones are hers. I think if a real Raymond Reddington was the bones, she might be the match in CODIS. Or not. Just a theory that may not hold any water.
I don't know that they would be especially interested if she went off on her own. If she had told them she was leaving they would have told her it wasn't a good idea, but they can't make her stay and they aren't going to waste manpower looking for her if she voluntarily left. She was just a child when he disappeared so it's not like she knew anything. I imagine there are children who entered into WITSEC that leave as adults if they can. But more importantly, I don't imagine she would have DNA in CODIS at all. Unless she was a felon of her own sort, I don't think they would have ever collected it. She wasn't reported as missing.
That being said, I don't think it's totally impossible that Garvey could be connected to the Reddingtons in WITSEC from the past. Possibly he was the one who took the case once it transferred to official WITSEC or was the point person that made contact with them on occasion. Then again, Garvey may have absolutely no connection to WITSEC. Considering he employed the Nash Syndicate, he might be part of the program that manages criminal assets. I guess we will find out.
Last edited by Brittany (2/11/2018 2:58 pm)
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Brittany - I would agree that now Garvey is most likely in the marshal division that oversees criminal assets based on is interaction with the Nash Syndicate. I wonder if the remainder of the season will be the FBI's Criminal Asset vs. Garvey and his criminal assets.
Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/11/2018 3:32 pm)
My money is on the FBI’s favorite criminal asset. ;)
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For me, it would be more interesting if there was some tie in with witness protection, or even fugitive operations. The fact sheet on the latter states that the Marshalls service also helps international agencies with helping to apprehend non US fugitives as well, if I read that right....and interestingly, they seem to focus also on sex offenders and missing children - which kind of ties in with CODIS
The other interesting thing I read on the fact sheets is that they also get involved in what's called tactical operations - helping agencies like homeland security and the intelligence services on operations.
I think any of the above could have tied Garvey in with Red in the past. I agree that he might be involved now with criminal assets and their forfeiture, but what about in the past if he was involved in another aspect, that brought him within Red's orbit in some way?
Another interesting idea goes back to one of the ideas I have that Red is a made up identity. What if way back when Red himself was put in witness protection, such individuals are given completely new identities and documentation; their medical records may also be changed over. Which would correlate to a fake Red history and identity. Just some thoughts....
Lara- I read some of those same things. And I have also heard of them helping with international fugitives as well. I wonder if the Marshall service could have its own Reddington task force? The FBI has the secret FBI task force that worked with Reddington while there was still one trying to track him down. I’ve also wondered if perhaps Garvey was set up to do something that Gale would have been tasked with if he had stayed in the show? That would have been interesting.
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I'm not sure if we mentioned this here, but at times during the Cold War the U.S. marshals also swapped spies with the Soviet Union.
Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/11/2018 5:10 pm)
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Tuxie400 - I'm not sure I can buy Carla/Naomi as KR. I've kind of thought on and off, and around the time that the Berlin arc aired, that they are all former Russian spies....KR, Sam, Red, Carla, and later, maybe Dom (because of his light Russian accent many of us discussed at the time), and Scottie/Howard. But I guess anything is possible. I just don't see anything pointing to it.
I do think the chicken bone caper was in there for a reason, maybe to make some kind of a Russian connection because Berlin used a similar thing both to help him escape from prison and the guards in the hospital in NY. So Carla (with a C LOL) could have been a Russian spy too. I also felt at the time that Berlin and Naomi already knew each other previously. But that's just an impression I had.
Its also interesting to me exactly who the Gov was protecting Carla and Jennifer from. When they show up at her house, Naomi just says, "he's back isn't he" and seems genuinely afraid. So was she being protected from Red, from Berlin, or from someone else? To me, Red didn't seem likely to harm her. If it was Berlin, that might be something to consider when thinking whether or not Berlin and Naomi knew each other previously.
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Brittany wrote:
Lara- I read some of those same things. And I have also heard of them helping with international fugitives as well. I wonder if the Marshall service could have its own Reddington task force? The FBI has the secret FBI task force that worked with Reddington while there was still one trying to track him down. I’ve also wondered if perhaps Garvey was set up to do something that Gale would have been tasked with if he had stayed in the show? That would have been interesting.
The interesting thing is, what was Garvey's connection to or knowledge of Red previously that he could know the secret of the bones. I don't think its from criminal asset forfeiture, though that may be Garvey's role now.
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So, I watched The Third Man today, a wonderful film that I haven't watched in a very long time.
Its interesting themes compared to TBL - including a small spoiler for those who have not seen the film - you will be spoiled if you read further - for a start, the number 3, which features so much is some form or another in TBL, The Third Man, the location in occupied post war Vienna at the start of the Cold War, a man who fakes his death, complete with fake corpse in the coffin, false passports etc.
I've seen a theory somewhere I believe where some folks believe that there is a third man in Liz's/Red's backstory - there is "Real" Reddington, our Red, and a "third man" who could actually be Liz's real father and the "bad man" who may have been killed the night of the fire. Its an interesting idea, esp since KR didn't particularly think "real" Reddington was Liz's father.....and you all know how I'm intrigued by "3". LOL. Not sure there's enough to support that idea though, it is interesting.
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Oh my gosh, for #252 above, I forgot to add - what was probably the most intriguing thing for me with the film re TBL - the main character, has a monologue that includes something about Swiss CUCKOO CLOCKS, and that monologue has evidently come to be known as the Swiss cuckoo clock monologue.....
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lara1 - I'm familiar with a "third man theory," and it may turn out there is a third man involved somehow. There are so many theories out there, it makes my head hurt. LOL I just wish we'd get a few more real clues from the show, so we could rule out at least some of the theories.
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Tuxie400 - yes that would be good LOL
Another random thought crossed my mind. We had The Cook whose trademark seemed to be the pentagram. Essentially, like a star. Like the US Marhsalls badge. I wonder if it is telegraphing that Garvey does indeed go back to fire night??
Side note: I started playing the Blacklist Conspiracy game after this episode because I knew the Invisible Hand was from the game. Now I’m into it.
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The Invisible Hand is also another Star Wars reference. It apparently was a spacecraft and part of the prequel series of stories and involved Anakin Skywalker before he became Darth Vader. On the Star Wars website, I was interested to read that Anakin Skywalker had been believed by some to be the CHOSEN ONE who would bring balance to the FORCE.
As I know next to nothing about Star Wars, hopefully this will make more sense to others than it did to me. However I did get the connection to TBL. The question is, why all the Star Wars references? Maybe that will become clearer over the course of the last part of this season.
Last edited by lara1 (2/11/2018 10:35 pm)
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Thank you everyone for the warm welcome.
CODIS didn't come into being until 1998. If the bones belong to someone who died before 1998, (and from the looks of the suitcase it looks older than 20 years), how did their DNA end up in CODIS? Old Navy Red's DNA wouldn't be in CODIS because he disappeared in 1991 unless Cooper added it to CODIS when he tested it to match it with Liz's DNA, which is possible and in my opinion, the only way the writers get around that dilemma. Also could be why the writers had Cooper run the match from Navy Red and not the blood found at the Anslo Garrick crime scene (leading to the fake/real red plotline). If Cooper didn't add the DNA to the system because he was doing the DNA comparison on the sly as a favor to Liz only, that rules out the bones belonging to RealRed. Even if fakeRed's blood was entered into CODIS after he turned himself into the FBI, it's obviously not his bones as he's alive and breathing. If Katarina really died in 1991 (and didn't fake her death), her DNA would not be in CODIS because her body would have been buried/lost at sea before CODIS came into existence. The bones have to belong to someone whose was alive after 1998 (or whose DNA was found after 1998), and who has a name recognizable to Tom because once he saw whose they were he told Liz: "I figured it out, the whole thing. Why Nik was killed, all of it." That doesn't leave that many people.
Another bone of contention (pun intended): When Liz was on the run, it was all over the news that she was Masha Rostova and on the run with Reddington. Why didn't Garvey know who she was? If he's in law enforcement wouldn't he know the name Elizabeth Keen, especially after Tom told him he worked for Red? Even more so because he knows who Red is. Wouldn't he know the rogue FBI agent daughter of a Soviet spy that Red was with that whole time they were on the run? I thought he did some research on Tom, didn't he know the name Tom Keen, the wife's name Liz Keen? Is this a huge hole in the plot or a huge hint? Since Garvey didn't know or care about the Rostova connection, his interest in the bones has nothing to do with Katarina - point 2 as to why they are not hers. (point 1 is she died or disappeared before CODIS came into being).
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Last thought. How did Garvey know of Red's involvement with the bones? Pete didn't know so he couldn't tell Garvey or his men. Tom didn't say anything until after Garvey brought it up. This leans heavily towards the bones by themselves pointing to Reddington. However, it's also possible Nik said something off camera about Red wanting to keep the bones a secret before they killed him. Which doesn't lead us in any direction but does show the bones belonged to someone important enough to alert Garvey, and which became even more interesting for him when he found out Red wanted them too. Which could point to them belonging a 3rd party, who died after 1998. But that party has to tie into Red because Garvey said this to Tom: "The last thing he'd want is for you to ID these bones. [...], but for me, it's a gift that's gonna keep on giving. Whatever you imagine the answer might be, it's better than that. Reddington's power is legendary. With this, I control that power. " Even if the bones prove a person was murdered, let's say they are Jennifer's bones and she was murdered, or Katarina's bones and she was murdered, they don't prove Red did it so what power do they have over Red?; which circles me back to my original thought: the only power the bones have over Red is if they're RealRed's.
Also Garvey assumed Pete or Tom could lead him to Red. Why? I think he assumed they were blackmailing Red with the bones, and that's why he thought they could get in touch with Red for him. That's why it would be a betrayal to lead Garvey to him. "It's no small thing to betray a man like Reddington." He said that before Tom told him he worked for him. How could a stranger betray Red with some bones unless that stranger knew whose bones they were (RealRed) and promised Red they wouldn't say anything if he paid them off? So yet another point leading to them belonging to RealRed.
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KathyN, We had done some research and CODIS was before 1998. There is a lot about it if you go to the suitcase theory. Off the top of my head I think it started in 13 states in 1990 and was completed in all states in 1998. But the dates should be in that section here.
Good points. We have been wondering why he did not know who Liz was? None of that makes any sense at all to us.