The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 5.11 - Abraham Stern - Discussion Page

1/21/2018 6:18 pm

Yes I thought about the Alchemists daughter and her insulin pump. But I think it could put Liz at risk of exposure to the police for killing Garvey. I have a hard time believing Garvey can’t find Red especially when he has tied Liz to Red and Liz and Red show up at each other’s places a lot.

lara1 · 1/21/2018 7:58 pm

Brittany - thanks. good observation. Yes, if Liz is found to have the "eyeball" (LOL) by law enforcement that will not be pretty!

lara1 · 1/21/2018 8:05 pm

So, for no apparent reason, rabbits popped into my head with hats. We all know that there are rabbit "sightings" all over. And hats of course, all types of hats. Red's fedora is part of his persona and part of the show. But the homburg got me thinking.

We've discussed many times (well at least I have, LOL) how TBL is a deception, a magic trick, an illusion.
And we've documented the rabbit sightings. Pondering what they mean. For some reason, although it was right in front of me I never paired the rabbit imagery with the hat imagery (maybe some of you have and I've forgotten LOL). Anyway, may just be another illusion to a magic trick: producing something from nothing.

an empty hat (call it a Fedora, or any hat really). Magic, and a rabbit is pulled from it by the magician.
Something, a living thing, exists where there was none. Like, maybe, hey, presto, a "person" or "identity" exists where there was none, but its all an illusion as to how it got there. (OK sorry yes you know I love my imposter thoughts....)

The same might be said for the bird imagery. Magicians also produce birds out of nowhere - though typically white doves - from behind a cape or cloth or similar. Just a thought.

Honey West · 1/22/2018 2:54 am

I think Garvey is after something else. I don’t think finding Red is the goal. He said it himself, Whoever has the bones can control Red's power. Now for those of us who think Red and his organization (or maybe it's his organizational abilities) exist as part of a larger machine of world power (going back to Red's Map of Doom), then he could be a key player to have control over. Maybe the time hasn’t been right just yet for Garvey to make his move in the game. I’ve long thought that somehow Red controls the balance of power in what he does. Or helps to maintain it. For instance, the Cabal was getting out of hand so Red stepped in to put them in check for the time being. Taking him out could result in some damage to the system to everyone’s detriment, especially if he doesn’t have a successor in line (maybe that’s what Liz is supposed to be?) but controlling him could give that person immense power and influence.

Or not.

Last edited by Honey West (1/22/2018 2:56 am)

Tuxie400 · 1/22/2018 10:46 am

lara1 - I've always thought of the rabbits and hats in connection with magic, or illusion. I also thought the idea of magic went very well with the idea of memory manipulation. There are several references to Red performing magic in the series - two by Aram that I can recall. And we've had smoke (fire) and mirrors for five seasons now.

Speaking of memory manipulation, a "giant bunny rabbit" - or the suggestion of one - was recently discovered in the footage of the Liz's tangent Christmas tree memory. Take a look at Tessa's Criminally Sane tumblr.

Tuxie400 · 1/22/2018 11:01 am

Honey West wrote:
I think Garvey is after something else. I don’t think finding Red is the goal. He said it himself, Whoever has the bones can control Red's power. Now for those of us who think Red and his organization (or maybe it's his organizational abilities) exist as part of a larger machine of world power (going back to Red's Map of Doom), then he could be a key player to have control over. Maybe the time hasn’t been right just yet for Garvey to make his move in the game. I’ve long thought that somehow Red controls the balance of power in what he does. Or helps to maintain it. For instance, the Cabal was getting out of hand so Red stepped in to put them in check for the time being. Taking him out could result in some damage to the system to everyone’s detriment, especially if he doesn’t have a successor in line (maybe that’s what Liz is supposed to be?) but controlling him could give that person immense power and influence.

That's an interesting way to look at Garvey. What I'm wondering is if he similar to other big bads, or if he's a totally new animal. For example, Berlin and Kirk wanted both wanted revenge on Red because of their daughters, and both were operating on a misconception. The Director wanted Red and Liz dead because of the blackmail secrets. Solomon was just a cog in the wheel of the Cabal, and then Alexander Kirk. Because the show does so many parallels, I'm thinking Garvey will end up having to do with blackmail like the Director or be someone's underling like Solomon.

lara1 · 1/22/2018 12:01 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - I've always thought of the rabbits and hats in connection with magic, or illusion. I also thought the idea of magic went very well with the idea of memory manipulation. There are several references to Red performing magic in the series - two by Aram that I can recall. And we've had smoke (fire) and mirrors for five seasons now.

Speaking of memory manipulation, a "giant bunny rabbit" - or the suggestion of one - was recently discovered in the footage of the Liz's tangent Christmas tree memory. Take a look at Tessa's Criminally Sane tumblr.

Tuxie400 - Im wondering if I linked it to magicians too and forgot about it! LOL. Because I became so focused on the Alice in Wonderland links in the fire memories and the real rabbit that kind of leads Lizzie down the rabbit hole (the path through the closet to the Christmas tree lot).

Thanks for the info on Tessa's blog, I'm sure I'll find it. I wonder if it could represent a person in a rabbit costume? Now that would me an interesting turn.......

EDITED TO ADD: Oh! yes, in Alice, wasn't the rabbit life sized? maybe that's it, then. will have a look

Last edited by lara1 (1/22/2018 12:02 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/22/2018 12:01 pm

When Red is in Liz's apartment he pays particular attention to her clues about Garvey, and the camera focuses on the photo of the Damascus knife for a few seconds. I think Red possibly knows someone from his past who has such a distinctive knife.

lara1 · 1/22/2018 12:03 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
When Red is in Liz's apartment he pays particular attention to her clues about Garvey, and the camera focuses on the photo of the Damascus knife for a few seconds. I think Red possibly knows someone from his past who has such a distinctive knife.

Tuxie400 - I'm still trying to remember whether Red used a Damascus knife to pin the note to Scottie on the body in the opening scenes of Susan Hargrave back in Season 3. He used a knife with a black handle and I thought it was curved when the took it to read the note. However, I don't remember exactly. It could have just been any kind of knife.

Last edited by lara1 (1/22/2018 12:04 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/22/2018 12:10 pm

What makes a knife a Damascus knife is the pattern that looks like engraving on the blade. Here's what I learned about Damascus steel:

Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (1/22/2018 12:18 pm)

lara1 · 1/22/2018 12:19 pm

HoneyWest (hi!) and Tuxie400 - interesting thoughts on Garvey. On the one hand, I've thought Garvey didn't want Red dead, but on the other hand, what if the "power" over Red is to strip Red of power and kind of torture him before killing him. I don't know - Berlin didn't want to kill Red, just exact revenge by torturing him, from what I saw. But he may have come after Red after torturing him about Naomi. Then, Kirk wanted Liz but also wanted Red killed. Ultimately, Kirk tortured Red to extract the "real" truth before then intending to kill him.

Interestingly, Red knew weaknesses of both Berlin (money) and Kirk (cure and whatever the "whisper" was).
Both bought him time - with Berlin, to track him and eliminate him, same with Kirk - though perhaps by different means. Red didn't know who Berlin was, only someone damaging his business. But once Red knew, he fully understood. With Kirk, he knew all. Just kicking around ideas.

With Kaplan of course, Red again didn't know who was sabotaging his business interests. A ghost like Berlin before Red knew who it was. then, Red of course knew why. Kaplan was in a sense avenging her "daughter" - the closest thing she had to one.

Interestingly, Tom had links to both Berlin and to Kaplan.

So, are we alternating back to the Kirk parallel - does Red already know? And, yes, is it another daughter story? I wonder though if it somehow is a twist and involves Red's "other" daughter (if there is one).

I don't know, I'm again just kicking around ideas, what may or may not be in common among Garvey and the others.

Last edited by lara1 (1/22/2018 12:44 pm)

lara1 · 1/22/2018 1:17 pm

OK, so I am thinking some more about that knife. Why would a murder weapon be left at the scene?
Because, I think, its a calling card and that's maybe the parallel to the Hargrave episode. Just like the card signed "R" pinned to the body for Susan Hargrave was Red's calling card. This knife is Garvey's. That's my latest thought anyway - Red knows who it is. Just IMO

I also thought about any Damascus links. The only one I could come up with was the effigy taken from Syria in the Maddie Pratt episode, which Red wanted and presumably still has (I think I saw it on the bookshelf in his new flat - but that's a big maybe I need to check that). (The story behind the GoddessAtargatis is also interesting, with hindsight.)

Just some more food for thought......

1/22/2018 7:21 pm

I was just thinking about the eye...was Navarro at the house when Garvey was after Red? Could he have seen Red with Tom?

Tuxie400 · 1/22/2018 7:48 pm

Brittany - Navarro was at the Keen home with Garvey. I think he was the one carrying the black duffel with bones when Garvey left the others behind to finish off Liz and Tom. I don't think there's any way to know at this point if he saw Red with Tom.

1/22/2018 9:14 pm

Tuxie—I was referring to that house where they followed Red, Tom and Dembe when they stopped for a car and first aid. I can’t remember if he was there or not.

lara1 · 1/23/2018 12:04 am

Tuxie400 #125 - I looked at Tessa's Tumblr, or rather, just the post with the "rabbit". To be honest, maybe its just me, but I don't see it at all To me there is kind of the suggestion of someone's back shoulder, maybe wearing a light colored wool coat, which would make sense if it is winter. But it could be anything, I suppose, including a giant rabbit. Can you see it?

Eastcoast · 1/23/2018 12:22 am

lara1, Just a few thoughts I had....
Garvey told them to clean up the bodies and take care of everything basically. I don't think he thought the knife would be left behind or his guys would be killed.

I don't think he wants him dead. I had the impression he wants to control that power he spoke of.
I think he is a crooked detective or something to do with the law and he knows Red can pull strings that will help him gain favors and still stay hidden from what he is doing.
If he wanted him dead I think he would have found him by now. He told that guy when he called him to let things run their course that it might take some time.

Last edited by Eastcoast (1/23/2018 12:23 am)

Tuxie400 · 1/23/2018 12:33 am

Brittany wrote:
Tuxie—I was referring to that house where they followed Red, Tom and Dembe when they stopped for a car and first aid. I can’t remember if he was there or not.

Navarro was with the men who went to the house looking for Tom. I would think during the shootout, Navarro would have seen Red with Tom. What significance would that have? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Tuxie400 · 1/23/2018 12:35 am

lara1 - Perhaps the knife was left as a calling card. I tend to think like Eastcoast that Garvey expected his clean-up crew to take care of the knife. But since they were killed by Red and Dembe, the knife remained at the scene.

Tuxie400 · 1/23/2018 12:43 am

lara1 - About the "giant bunny," what I see is a person wearing a white fur and running through the Christmas trees. I would assume it's just a coat, but it does suggest a large white rabbit - since little Liz was following a real rabbit and someone yells, "Catch me if you can." With all the times I've rewatched that episode, I've never noticed that before. It's pretty surprising what people have found with these slowed down gifs. Another fan, Kiss My Freckle, was the one who noticed it and claimed that part of Liz's Braxton memory is a manipulation because of the real rabbit and the "giant bunny."