The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.07: Dr. Adrian Shaw Discussion Page

Patter · 11/10/2016 4:22 pm

lara1 wrote:
Tuxie400 #156. I think that line you mention that Red delivers could also be literal - as Liz is one of Sam''s own. The way spader delivers that line and looks at him. But equally maybe not !!

Tuxie400, Honey West and eastcoast .- well I am in the "Red is not Red" group. I have from time to time thought the same, that the real red is Liz's father and he died and whoever the current "Red" is took his identity. That explains some of the ambiguity with Naomi. She could have been the real Red's wife. That's why she seems so cagey in that scene with Frank and Red. But when I thought it through I couldn't make it all work. But I still like that idea and think it's possible.

On the bus stuck in traffic so pls excuse any typos....

I'd hop on the Red is not Red bandwagon only because of the pilot episode "everything you know about me is a lie." But I go back to Dom. How long has Dom known Raymond as Raymond? Whole life? Since he was in his youth? Early twenties? I know we've all pondered that before. I'd really love for the showrunners to explore that history. Bring back Dom! Also, do we know when Raymond met Katarina? Does Katarina call him Red or Raymond (can't remember).

Honey West · 11/10/2016 4:46 pm

Patter wrote:
I'd hop on the Red is not Red bandwagon only because of the pilot episode "everything you know about me is a lie." But I go back to Dom. How long has Dom known Raymond as Raymond? Whole life? Since he was in his youth? Early twenties? I know we've all pondered that before. I'd really love for the showrunners to explore that history. Bring back Dom! Also, do we know when Raymond met Katarina? Does Katarina call him Red or Raymond (can't remember).

Here is the Pilot quote:
Liz: And I'm supposed to believe you?
Red: No, of course not! I'm a criminal. Criminals are notorious liars. Everything about me is a lie. But if anyone can give me a second chance, it's you. The two of us have overcome so much. I mean, look at you.
Abandoned by a father who was a career criminal, a mother who died of weakness and shame.
And yet here you are, about to make a name for yourself, about to capture Ranko Zamani. I'm gonna make you famous, Lizzy.

I still think it's interesting that Red says Liz's father abandoned her, not that he was dead. But maybe they hadn't gotten that far with the story development when they wrote the Pilot. But I do agree that the Red-as-imposter thing doesn't add up either. Too many characters who seem to have known him for a long time know him as Raymond Reddington. In Cape May the "Katarina" apparition calls him Raymond, but then that is him talking to himself. But in the journal entries she refers to him as Raymond. My take is that people who are or have been fairly close to him longterm call him Raymond. Less close tend to call him Ray and associates who are on a first-name basis use his nickname of Red. For everyone else he is either Reddington or Mr. Reddington.

lara1, you did mention that Zamani was Serbian, right? And on your Serbian list? I can't remember.

Last edited by Honey West (11/10/2016 4:50 pm)

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/10/2016 4:48 pm

Things are spinning in multiple directions.
Only thing I'm putting down hard money is - that Kreepy Kardashian (Odette) is NOT Jellybean's daughter!

Perhaps a niece!

Honey West · 11/10/2016 4:51 pm

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
Things are spinning in multiple directions.
Only thing I'm putting down hard money is - that Kreepy Kardashian (Odette) is NOT Jellybean's daughter!

Perhaps a niece!

LOL!

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/10/2016 5:36 pm

Also betting how they show Mr. Kaplan's escape from Mountain Mandy (aka Andy Griffith, Jr.)
Can't devote more than 30 sec. to "The Kate Escape" so in homage to Mountain Mandy - they'll prolly just show him with a major orifice bleed, lying horizontal on his unfinished mountain man accommodation with a dog barking away in the background.

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/10/2016 5:50 pm

PS. The blurb on my PVR says "Mr. Kaplan comes to a realization about her future!"

immo she realizes the mountain man is going to dispose of her - so she uses her super power (turning the table) to do to him what he was pumped up about doing to her . . . .

Eastcoast · 11/10/2016 6:45 pm

Honey West wrote:
Patter wrote:
I'd hop on the Red is not Red bandwagon only because of the pilot episode "everything you know about me is a lie." But I go back to Dom. How long has Dom known Raymond as Raymond? Whole life? Since he was in his youth? Early twenties? I know we've all pondered that before. I'd really love for the showrunners to explore that history. Bring back Dom! Also, do we know when Raymond met Katarina? Does Katarina call him Red or Raymond (can't remember).

Here is the Pilot quote:
Liz: And I'm supposed to believe you?
Red: No, of course not! I'm a criminal. Criminals are notorious liars. Everything about me is a lie. But if anyone can give me a second chance, it's you. The two of us have overcome so much. I mean, look at you.
Abandoned by a father who was a career criminal, a mother who died of weakness and shame.
And yet here you are, about to make a name for yourself, about to capture Ranko Zamani. I'm gonna make you famous, Lizzy.

I still think it's interesting that Red says Liz's father abandoned her, not that he was dead. But maybe they hadn't gotten that far with the story development when they wrote the Pilot. But I do agree that the Red-as-imposter thing doesn't add up either. Too many characters who seem to have known him for a long time know him as Raymond Reddington. In Cape May the "Katarina" apparition calls him Raymond, but then that is him talking to himself. But in the journal entries she refers to him as Raymond. My take is that people who are or have been fairly close to him longterm call him Raymond. Less close tend to call him Ray and associates who are on a first-name basis use his nickname of Red. For everyone else he is either Reddington or Mr. Reddington.

lara1, you did mention that Zamani was Serbian, right? And on your Serbian list? I can't remember.

Patter, lara1 and Honey West,

I just had an idea hit me out of the blue and I don't think it has been mentioned that I will get to in a minute.

I was thinking about Sam. He is her father legally because he adopted her. I know people who are adopted that have picked up traits of their adopted parents. And going back to what we had talked about a while back, If Sam were her real dad I don't think he would have killed him. Same reason he wont kill Tom.

In the pilot when he said everything about him was a lie, maybe it was meant to mean the Opposite?
Maybe he meant everything they have said about him and she has been told or believes about him is a lie because after all he was a family man at one point and it seams to have all changed over night when his family was killed that she knows nothing about and that is what made him go off the grid.
Because I also have a problem with her dad being dead because he did not say he was dead in the pilot, but did say her mother was.

I am now wondering if there is some way Kirk is involved with Reds family being killed? Maybe he was contacted by the Cabal and knew KR hid the Fulcrum and thought she told Red where it was to save himself?

And now, I must go get everything done so I can be relaxed and have all my snacks together by 10:00!

lara1 · 11/10/2016 6:59 pm

Honey West and Patter - yeah, a block on the Red is not Red theory is that those who know him a long time call him Raymond. The only way that would work I think is if his name really was "Raymond" in his other life. During the summer discussions, someone brought up that the main characters have had other characters in the series with the same first name, and made a list. I can't remember now but will try to find it. The most obvious is Katerina and Kate Kaplan, two Kates. But I don't think there was ever another Raymond, which may mean that the "second" Raymond has been in front of us all of this time . A bit of a stretch, but what the heck.

I did make a list of seasons 1-3 and what each character called Red. Red, Ray, Raymond, Reddigton. I don't have the list with me where I am now, but as I recall "Raymond" was used by those with a personal connection - Dembe, Kaplan, Katerina, Fitch, a couple others. Susan Hargrave called him both Raymond and Red. Those who knew him a long time but were not personal connections (like Braxton, Garrick) did not call him Ray or Raymond. Just some info there on the name

Honey West - Yes, Zamani was Bosnian Serb. A Serbian who resided in a village within Bosnia. I know we had long conversations on the Bosnian conflict and that book on Dom's shelf over the summer. For me, it was interesting that not only was Zamani a Serbian but a Bosnian Serb, and that connected directly to the story (the Serb/Bosnian conflict aftermath) in that book that Dom had.

Edited to add Dom and Kirk as two more people who called Red, "Raymond". personal connections

Last edited by lara1 (11/10/2016 7:12 pm)

lara1 · 11/10/2016 7:08 pm

Eastcoast - good point about Sam. although I do think that if Liz's safety was at stake, that would have overridden the father thing. So many different "facts" to keep straight! LOL. I don't believe strongly that Sam is Liz's father, but its interesting to try to figure out where the puzzle pieces lie....(that is, everywhere, LOL!)

Interesting idea that Kirk was behind whatever became of Red's family. Red doesn't know what happened to his family, or I believe he would have killed Kirk before now. so many interesting ideas!!

And I don't want to forget to drop this in: the theory of the "two Lizzies" that Red's daughter who died was also called Lizzie (the dual name theory again also), and therefore Red sees Liz as his daughter....or there is otherwise some kind of connection between Lizzie and Red's daughter....

Well there's only so many answers we can get in 40 minutes....I think! LOL

lara1 · 11/10/2016 7:09 pm

BBB #166 - I'm thinking something along the same lines. I do hope she escapes!

Eastcoast · 11/10/2016 7:35 pm

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
PS. The blurb on my PVR says "Mr. Kaplan comes to a realization about her future!"

immo she realizes the mountain man is going to dispose of her - so she uses her super power (turning the table) to do to him what he was pumped up about doing to her . . . .

BBB, maybe your right. I think it would be great if She gets rid of him and lives in the cabin Realizing she cannot leave until she can figure out a way for Red not to find her. Hopefully she took her cell phone so she can go back for it and recharge it....

Honey West · 11/10/2016 8:07 pm

I just have a feeling that Kate's story may be coming to an end. I hope not. It would be a shame to have her escape Red only to be killed later. But it does say she comes to a realization about her fate, not that her fate is realized. So I have hope! I think I read that this will not be a traditional cliffhanger type of episode. So it will likely not end with someone in grave danger or something like that.

Honey West · 11/10/2016 8:19 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
If Sam were her real dad I don't think he would have killed him. Same reason he wont kill Tom.

Because killing her father would be a mortal sin. Yes, good point. But he was prepared to kill Kirk after Liz was dead, so I think that changed when Liz came back to life, because Red hasn't tried very hard to kill him since then. But if Red knows Kirk is not her father, then wouldn't that rule out the father immunity? I guess it also works if Red thinks that Liz believes he is her father. I guess he hasn't been her father for too short of a time for Red to kill him yet. But he was okay with Kirk being in FBI custody. Something I just don't quite yet get between those two.

Eastcoast wrote:
In the pilot when he said everything about him was a lie, maybe it was meant to mean the Opposite?
Maybe he meant everything they have said about him and she has been told or believes about him is a lie because after all he was a family man at one point and it seams to have all changed over night when his family was killed.......
I am now wondering if there is some way Kirk is involved with Reds family being killed? Maybe he was contacted by the Cabal and knew KR hid the Fulcrum and thought she told Red where it was to save himself?

And now, I must go get everything done so I can be relaxed and have all my snacks together by 10:00!

Interesting ideas, Eastcoast! I hadn't thought of that Opposites idea before. And it is quite possible that Kirk had something to do with what happened to Red's family. But if Red had any inkling of that possibility, I think Kirk would have been dead a long time ago. We've always thought maybe her real father hid the Fulcrum in the bunny, but Red didn't know it was there - or maybe he just didn't know where the bunny was. Hmmmm. I really hope we get something tonight! One thing I can be certain of is that most of you will know way before I do!

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/10/2016 8:27 pm

immo - there will be a major cliff-hanger, an introduction of a new threat (or threats) and semi-resolution of a fair percentage of current mysteries (blood types, Dr. Shaw, Mr. Kaplan, Tom/Redemption, Susan Hargrave, etc.)
Not just because its The Blacklist - moreso cuz its network TV drama and that's how they do it. . . .
If any of the main/recurring cast bow out (cuz they've found more regular work or the show-runners have decided ot mix things up) I think the most vulnerable ones are:

1. Kirk (obviously)
2. Kreepy Kardashain (no post-Kirk role available for this fine actress)
3. Samar Navabi (willing to bet heavily against it as she brings much-needed sex appeal to the cast)
4. Tom (for obvious crossover to new start-up crossover drama)
5. Ressler
6. Mr. Kaplan

Obviously at least one is gonzo Alonzo . . . but will the total be 2, 3 or 4?

lara1 · 11/10/2016 8:42 pm

Honey West #173. Yes something in the Kirk/Red relationship does not add up. We feel that Red wants to kill Kirk but doesn't, and I think its more than just Kirk is/Liz thinks Kirk is Liz's father.

I hope that one of the answers we get tonight is their relationship, high level. Are they related or not, do they go way back (like childhood) or not, is their only connection a love triangle with katarina, etc. Apart from whatever their individual connections to Liz may be

I really wish they would give us a 2 hour premiere or finale one of these days!

lara1 · 11/10/2016 8:47 pm

BBB #174 - Creepy Kardashian, LOL. Maybe Liz heaves her up and into the river after that promo shot and she can't swim! LOL there is a swimming/drowning theme in BL, isn't there?

IowaWatcher · 11/10/2016 9:37 pm

Awesome theories! I wish that I could add something brilliant, but I'm just fighting to stay awake.

I don't think anything will get resolved tonight. I'm looking for them to feed us a lot of action but no real answers. I hope I'm wrong!