The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.07: Dr. Adrian Shaw Discussion Page

lara1 · 11/06/2016 10:38 pm

Some Further Observations on Episode 4.07

On the re-watch, I found some interesting things including some dialogue parallels, continues with the sort of mirror imagery between Kirk and Red that several of us have commented on, in each case the imagery is flipped between the two dialogue lines:
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Kirk to Liz while in the box: something like, "if this is what it took for you to call me Father, it was worth it"
Anslo Garrick to Red when he comes out of the box: something like, "is she worth it?"
Fitch's guy to Red when the FBI recaptures Red at the end of Season 1 and he is in the wire cage: Is she worth it. Red replies, "Yes. the girl. she is worth it."

The episode starts with a lionfish story of Red spearing lionfish to explain that Kirk will get away from his imprisonment in the box and Liz will ultimately be involved in that. Reminded me of the lionfish story Red tells Liz as he is about to be re-captured by the FBI, which was orchestrated by Liz - in that one it was Red who was speared (stung) by the lionfish. In one scenario, Liz will help free Kirk; in the prior one, she helped to re-imprison Red

Liz to Kirk: something like: I chose me. It was my decision - to protect Agnes. That was my decision to make, no one else's, not even my father's.
Red to Liz about Sam and how, if Sam had been well, he would never have told her about her real father: "It was not his decision to make."

Kirk to Liz: You just saved my life. Liz: I tried to.
Liz to Red in 2.21: You're my sin eater. Red: I tried to be.

Liz to Tom when discussing why she wants to save Kirk's life: "Its not that simple"
Red has said that phrase to liz multiple times. Signifies ethical, moral, personal dilemmas? To save someone, or not? perhaps if Red made such a decision in the past, Liz will now understand it.
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The episode starts with yet another story of a young girl being forced by her father to marry the father's horrible rival in an effort to gain peace for business. This is the third such story that i recall (the others were Josephine, and the other arranged marriage in that same episode). Makes me wonder if Katarina's marriage to Kirk was along the same lines…...

I saw some glimpses of symbols that some of us have previously pointed out:

Colleen: when Liz is on the phone to Tom in the hospital there is a close up of her standing next to the triangles in the hospital sign…..

When Samar meets the Coroner in the restaurant, one of the framed pictures in the next booth is about Christmas. I can't read the second word, but it might be "musical"….not sure. If so that would be cool, combining Christmas and music...

Red calls himself "the ghost of Christmas past…"

There is another theatre picture in the same restaurant, sort of opposite the Christmas one, that states "starts on October 22". I thought this might be reference to Russian October Revolution but I think that started on October 24, with a meeting on October 23. Perhaps close enough though!

Red visits Dr. "Ray""burn" (!)….to find Adrian Shaw

Kirk ("church") makes the sign of the cross as the signal to his extraction team...

In some ways this was like a Season 2 episode with the obvious references to faking deaths, false identities, disappearing people, plagues, doctors doing unsanctioned research ("Robin Hood" theme), and of course DNA sequencing and genetics! Lots of mirroring and reflection type scenes, from the very opening with Dr. Shaw and her patient. And the 2 way mirror made me think of something, when thinking back to Ep 4.01 and the two way mirror Red shoots into with Kirk on the other side. That's very like the 2 way mirrors used with police and criminals. So who was the criminal, Red or Kirk? Maybe its just that each thinks the other is….

Last edited by lara1 (11/06/2016 10:43 pm)

lara1 · 11/06/2016 10:48 pm

Some further thoughts/questions...

Does anyone else think that Red might be planning to be captured by Kirk? And is Dr. Shaw part of that plan? The last scene of her shows her surrounded by several large cardboard boxes, with thick files, and she is poring through paperwork, presumably from one of the boxes. Impossible to know what she is reading, and what Red wants from it, but we may all be surprised….

The HIghlights scene made me think of we Refugees! seeking out the clues and trying to solve the puzzle and always being one piece short to complete it!! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (11/06/2016 10:48 pm)

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/06/2016 11:28 pm

Anyone know how long we're off for after next week's fall cliff-hanger?
My guess - until at least mid January, perhaps early February
Truthful opinion = TOO LONG

lara1 · 11/06/2016 11:51 pm

BBB - I have heard varying things. The latest I have heard (don't know if its accurate) is that Blacklist will return mid Jan. Redemption sometime in Feb then running while TBL is on early spring hiatus (late Feb/March?). I would expect that they would have at least one crossover ep between TBL and Redemption so that both will be on the air at the same time for one or two episodes. But I haven't actually seen this confirmed anywhere by NBC.

I don't think that Redemption has started filming yet.

Last edited by lara1 (11/06/2016 11:52 pm)

Honey West · 11/07/2016 1:56 am

Tabasko wrote:
I do think there is some reason they gave Kirk his background in energy and that there was some mention of a problem in the past. I think at the time a few of us wondered if there was something like that happened, maybe some kind of contamination.

Word: Chernobyl. He would have been a 20-something kid at that time. Maybe he tripped over a plug and caused the whole thing.

Honey West · 11/07/2016 1:59 am

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
I think the best surprise of this season is the amazing acting performances by Anna Sirim (I think I abbreviated her name) as the creepy and mysterious Odette, Kirk's aide/mistress/associate. Totally riveting and now more people hate her than even Kirk, Karakurt or even Peter Stormare's revolting character!

Totally agree, Triple B. She is one of the most dislikable supporting characters they've had in a long time. But when you said "aide/mistress/associate" you forgot the worst thing of all - she said she was his lawyer!

Honey West · 11/07/2016 2:12 am

lara1 wrote:
Some further thoughts/questions...

Does anyone else think that Red might be planning to be captured by Kirk?

If he was, it wasn't right now. He did tell Liz to get out of there, so he had no intention that she be captured and he eventually trade himself for her. But maybe he has been leading up to something like that. Only probably he was thinking a face to face confrontation with himself in control, not Kirk. After all, I think Kirk is sort of a loose end from the distant past that Red probably hoped he wouldn't have to deal with any time soon, but of course the resurfacing of Masha changed all of that.
Actually I think Red may be going to try to save Kirk's life. Not sure why. Maybe Kirk has some missing information or something.

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/07/2016 9:51 am

Honey West wrote:
Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
I think the best surprise of this season is the amazing acting performances by Anna Sirim (I think I abbreviated her name) as the creepy and mysterious Odette, Kirk's aide/mistress/associate. Totally riveting and now more people hate her than even Kirk, Karakurt or even Peter Stormare's revolting character!
Totally agree, Triple B. She is one of the most dislikable supporting characters they've had in a long time. But when you said "aide/mistress/associate" you forgot the worst thing of all - she said she was his lawyer!

The fact she resembles a slimmed down version of Kim Kardashian adds to the overall hate directed the character. As I stated before she appears to have lots of sinister leadership skills - if Red and the Post Office can somehow redeem her and use her as a possible associate that would be tremendous. Only one other character in recent television history started out as an eery/mysterious killer villain but ended up the most heroic characters in TV history - that would of course, be Root as played by Amy Acker on Person of Interest.

Tabasko · 11/07/2016 10:04 am

Honey West wrote:
Maybe he tripped over a plug and caused the whole thing.

lara1 · 11/07/2016 10:57 am

Honey West - #125 - LOL!

#127 - that's an interesting thought, that Red may be trying to save Kirk's life. It did cross my mind.
So I ask myself, what has changed? Red definitely wanted to kill Kirk, not capture him etc., in Season 3, even if that meant Red himself might die or at least be captured and kept imprisoned for all eternity. Of course, that was vengeance for Liz's "death" and Red seemed to feel nothing but pure hatred toward Kirk.

then, in 4.01, Red fires through the mirror, in my opinion, intending to kill Kirk. But maybe just to ensure Liz was freed......

By the time we get to the rooftop scene, it looks like Red has changed his approach. His pleading to Constantin is that of someone who perhaps once had a kind of bond with him…maybe.

Its quite possible that Red is seeking a cure for Kirk. But I'm curious as to what changed his mind. Finding Dr. Shaw? And this was before the discovery by Liz that she was not Kirk's daughter.

Intriguing!

Last edited by lara1 (11/07/2016 10:59 am)

Honey West · 11/07/2016 12:45 pm

Tabasko wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Maybe he tripped over a plug and caused the whole thing.

Did I finally get you to spit out your Cheerios this morning, Tabs?? (sideways)

Tabasko · 11/07/2016 2:19 pm

Honey West wrote:
Tabasko wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Maybe he tripped over a plug and caused the whole thing.

Did I finally get you to spit out your Cheerios this morning, Tabs?? (sideways)

I switched to granola, but they went flying!

Honey West · 11/07/2016 2:51 pm

Tabasko wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Tabasko wrote:

Did I finally get you to spit out your Cheerios this morning, Tabs?? (sideways)
I switched to granola, but they went flying!

SUCCESS!!!!

Honey West · 11/07/2016 3:24 pm

lara1 wrote:
#127 - that's an interesting thought, that Red may be trying to save Kirk's life. It did cross my mind.
So I ask myself, what has changed?........then, in 4.01, Red fires through the mirror, in my opinion, intending to kill Kirk. But maybe just to ensure Liz was freed......

Its quite possible that Red is seeking a cure for Kirk. But I'm curious as to what changed his mind. Finding Dr. Shaw? And this was before the discovery by Liz that she was not Kirk's daughter.

Intriguing!

Well, he did only want to kill Kirk as revenge for Liz's "death". Red was lashing out at the only person he could pin the blame onto at the time. And even that was rather tenuous in my opinion. Sure, Kirk's plan to kidnap her led to the circumstances that caused her to die, but it's not like Kirk drove her car into that truck and caused the supposedly fatal medical complications. It's like his execution of Kaplan for her role in what really happened. He basically killed her for doing her job (which he probably gave her to do to begin with), as she pointed out to no avail. Kate's job = protect Red. Red is an Important Guy, to whatever his operation happens to be. He doesn't appear to have a successor lined up (that we know of) in case anything happens too him other that what he told Kate in "Leonard Caul", that if he died she had things she needed to do. (so now who assumes her role in doing that now?) But Kate knows that Red has a vulnerability named Liz. And Red has made it very clear that he will die for her if necessary. I'm sure Kate realized a long time ago that Liz would make her job a lot more difficult and that really, the only way she could mitigate that would be to remove Liz. But how to do that, short of killing her? Then the opportunity came up for her to do just that. And it appeared that she could also help Liz have her happy life at the same time as a bonus. Red would no longer be at risk of dying for her. Everything would be good. But, she totally underestimated Red's reaction and subsequent, reckless thirst for revenge. This is why the cleaner should not try to be the strategist. Too many contingencies that only a master like Red could foresee and plan for. Really Kate died not for doing her job, but for the way she did it. Red had to pass his judgement based on that, and that's why he decided to execute her in the end. I really think he may have been still weighing the facts up to the last seconds. Maybe that's why he missed.

Anyway, got off track a bit, back to Kirk. Whatever reason Red might have to keep Kirk alive must relate to the reason why he was never on Red's blacklist in the first place. Whether that is from something in their past, or maybe a way that their operations work together today (like the relationship he had with Fitch and the Cabal over the years), or whether he was to have some role in whatever the Big Thing that Red is planning for in 2017? Still unknown. We just know that Red's planning is very fluid. He has goals, but how he gets to them is always changing because human nature and things beyond his control continue to happen.

Honey West · 11/07/2016 6:44 pm

Got interrupted, company stopped by.
Getting back to Kirk and why Red might want to save him. Going back to Red's Map of Doom, it had red green and blue dots representing all of the "players". I don't remember if Red said what the colors meant, only that they were The Cabal, their allies and the people who oppose them, I need to watch that again to see what he actually said but that was the gist of it. I don't think we know which color Red's group was, and I suspect the groups can change colors as they realign their interests amongst themselves. I suspect Kirk's group was on there, too. Maybe one day we will get some more information on the map and its meanings as we get closer to the end of things. Just guessing, of course. But it may be why Red could be interested in keeping Kirk alive, if that's what he plans to do. He could just up and kill him any time he gets the chance, especially now that Liz knows she is not his daughter. That may have given him temporary immunity even though Red was adamant that Kirk was not her father. Liz was starting to believe it. The DNA report in Kirk's file was likely an old, faked one and was intended to fool Kirk about Liz's real father, whoever he might be. Kirk said he once thought that Reddington was her father, but then he obtained evidence that he was not. Probably that old DNA report was the "evidence". And of course we get back to there may have been a third man involved. Red tells Liz that her father is dead. In the Pilot he tells her that she was abandoned by a father who was a career criminal. He doesn't say he's dead. But he's never lied to Liz. Around and around we go! LOL! Actually the third man idea makes the most sense. I vote for Fitch, since he is now dead and that would make Red's assertion that her father is dead true. Plus the fact that I have always thought that Fitch played a large role in Red's involvement with the Rostovas and whatever led to all of his "problems" later on. Anyway, until proven otherwise, that's the way I lean.

lara1 · 11/07/2016 7:03 pm

Honey West #134-5. thanks for sharing your thoughts on that with us, why Red might want to save Kirk, if he does. True, Kirk was never on Red's list. Red doesn't answer, or at least we don't hear his answer, when Harold asks him why not, they just cut to Liz and Tom. Maybe Red never wanted Liz to know about Kirk, or, having Kirk on the list might mean that they might meet. But Kirk's kidnapping of Liz changed all of that.

I'm very intrigued by all of this to say the least! And Kirk has no desire to save Red, rather the opposite, to Kill him. If Red does really mean to save Kirk, for a swap for something else from Kirk or otherwise, there is the mirror image again: Red seeks to save Kirk; Kirk seeks to destroy Red.

Red always has a plan. I can't wait to find out what this one is!

I'm also starting to think that there is a third man. Someone whom Red knows and might be protecting, or at least, protecting his legacy. But why Liz would be in danger from a third man who supposedly died long ago is another…..mystery! LOL

Honey West · 11/07/2016 8:28 pm

Didn't think of that as more mirror, lara1 #136, but I guess it is.
I think that until Masha Rostova resurfaced that Red felt there was no danger of her ever meeting Kirk. Either she was so well-hidden, with her memories altered to forget about him, that Kirk didn't have any idea who she was in the present or else he had agreed to something and her coming into the open negated that agreement and he felt free to go after her in the odd way that he did it. And now that I think about it, when Red had her memories "erased" it might not have been about erasing just the fire stuff, but might have been more about erasing memories of the man believed to be her father, Constantin Rostov, as well as her real parents. As I said a long time ago, when Red had her memories altered he knew it would be like creating a blank slate giving her a new life, but he also knew that it would erase any memories she might have had of him and I think that probably really bothered him.

For the third man, it might just be who he is and who he is or was connected to that still present a danger to Liz. Why? I have no idea. But dead or alive might not make any difference.

Eastcoast · 11/07/2016 11:29 pm

Honey West wrote:
Got interrupted, company stopped by.
Getting back to Kirk and why Red might want to save him. Going back to Red's Map of Doom, it had red green and blue dots representing all of the "players". I don't remember if Red said what the colors meant, only that they were The Cabal, their allies and the people who oppose them, I need to watch that again to see what he actually said but that was the gist of it. I don't think we know which color Red's group was, and I suspect the groups can change colors as they realign their interests amongst themselves. I suspect Kirk's group was on there, too. Maybe one day we will get some more information on the map and its meanings as we get closer to the end of things. Just guessing, of course. But it may be why Red could be interested in keeping Kirk alive, if that's what he plans to do. He could just up and kill him any time he gets the chance, especially now that Liz knows she is not his daughter. That may have given him temporary immunity even though Red was adamant that Kirk was not her father. Liz was starting to believe it. The DNA report in Kirk's file was likely an old, faked one and was intended to fool Kirk about Liz's real father, whoever he might be. Kirk said he once thought that Reddington was her father, but then he obtained evidence that he was not. Probably that old DNA report was the "evidence". And of course we get back to there may have been a third man involved. Red tells Liz that her father is dead. In the Pilot he tells her that she was abandoned by a father who was a career criminal. He doesn't say he's dead. But he's never lied to Liz. Around and around we go! LOL! Actually the third man idea makes the most sense. I vote for Fitch, since he is now dead and that would make Red's assertion that her father is dead true. Plus the fact that I have always thought that Fitch played a large role in Red's involvement with the Rostovas and whatever led to all of his "problems" later on. Anyway, until proven otherwise, that's the way I lean.

Honey West ,

Cabal is Green,
their affilates are red,
and the competition is blue.

I was also thinking that maybe he was having the Dr. come up with a cure to save him and get an answer out of him about something, or to trade for Liz again at some point because until he is dead she is in Danger from him.

Honey West · 11/07/2016 11:42 pm

Thanks, eastcoast #138! I couldn't remember if he said what the colors meant.

I agree, it's very possible that Kirk has some information. If he does, then it must have lost its value while Liz was "dead". Hmmmmmmm.

Patter · 11/08/2016 4:05 pm

I am happy that the promo mention "4 seasons" and "THE ANSWER" not answers, but THE ANSWER. And if the answer is not Red, but a 3rd party I will be happy with that. Even if the third man is deceased or was just a super science experiment specimen donor to create the warrior that is Lizzie, I will be happy.