The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.07: Dr. Adrian Shaw Discussion Page

Tuxie400 · 11/05/2016 9:20 am

BBB - That would be pretty dramatic if Mr. Kaplan were the one to save Red. I'm thinking it will be a combination of people.

lara1 · 11/05/2016 10:12 am

A Note on Physical Resemblances

Laocoon #84 and Honey West #88 - I too have noticed a resemblance among Kirk, Sam and Red. I think that maybe we are being shown a few threads that can be woven together. Maybe not, but heck, I love theories! Here are two observations:

1. Taking also into account Tuxie400's notes on radiation and aplastic anemia (#95) -

-What if Red and Kirk are half brothers (don't know if the producers confirming that they are not brothers means they are not half brothers either); or cousins. Of course, if they are related through father lineage, wouldn't that mean:

- that Red is really a "Rostov" (that has crossed my mind every time we see a note that is just signed "R" (this happened with both Susan Hargrave and now Kirk, connections with 2 people I think may look like Red (Howard, Kirk)), or at least, 2 Kirk sagas (of course both Raymond and Reddington have R's, but heck, I like a Rostov theory!)
- that Red would have the Rostov illness. Here's a theory - what, if Kirk's illness was made worse/brought forward by some radiation exposure, and Red maybe has the same illness, only it is not in as advanced a stage - is that really why Red sought out Dr. Shaw? perhaps not, perhaps its all rolled into the Kirk saga because of the timing. Or did the Kirk saga give Red the timing and opportunity he needed? That would also bring in part of a theory that Honey West and others have had previously, maybe some kind of radiation connection with Kirk's illness. will have to watch the finale very closely!

2. I also thought that Sam and Howard looked very alike (particularly if you look at Sam's photos with little Lizzie, 20 years ago). Of course, we only have that one photo of Howard so far - but consider this:

- Susan Hargrave's nickname (middle name?) is Scottie; the same that was either Sam's (we don't know) or that Sam gave to Liz - what if Sam and Howard were brothers and Liz was given that name because of that connection; (of course it could just be the Star Trek joke!) ;

- "Susan Hargrave" is probably an alias….we don't' know her real name, nor do we know Howard's surname, but I'm betting its Russian….

-what if Howard's "illness" - he is certainly off the scene - and possibly on a ventilator - is the same as Kirk's?

- Howard and Kirk brothers: or otherwise related? Howard and Sam brothers or otherwise related? Red related to one of them, or both?!

I think we may need to start drawing up a tentative family tree! LOL! But I'm thinking based on all of your observations, that at least some of these characters are family related.

Last edited by lara1 (11/05/2016 10:23 am)

Honey West · 11/05/2016 10:20 am

Agree. I have thought since she got shot and survived that she might be around to save Red or Liz at some point. At the very least she might serve as a means for Red to "undo" something bad that he did. Shooting Kate for betraying him would be what he "had to do", and even Kate said that to Tom. But it really goes back to Red's core principle that he only kills those who deserve to die. He becomes their judge and executioner. Kate tried to make her case that what she did was best for him, that she was protecting him from himself. She knew Liz was his vulnerable spot and like in the creepy painting, Liz would be the death of him in the end. Heck, maybe Kate sent the painting? We don't know for sure it was Kirk. I don't think he ever admitted it, although I think Red thinks he knows who sent it. But anyway, it comes down to whether Red still thinks that Kate deserved to die for what she did. Was it a capital crime in his mind? He seems very cold about it, and you have to think that maybe he is not so sure, but of course, what's done is done, and he can't go back, and he certainly can't show any uncertainty or emotion about it to anyone. But we know that as long as she's alive, maybe, he will be able to. We shall see. But I'm sure that Dembe, aka Red's Conscience, will have something to do with it. (w00t)

Tuxie400 · 11/05/2016 10:29 am

lara1 - Refresh my memory. How do we know what Howard looks like?

Honey West · 11/05/2016 10:31 am

Lara1 #103, yes, that is all very possible. I had been thinking that it might all have been from a Cold War eugenics program to create the perfect soldier or super spy. We know these things were thought of and probably worked on at the time, so it's possible at the very least. Maybe somebody rebelled and got away from all of that, or tried to?
I still think Kirk had something to do with Chernobyl. That did happen in 1986. And Red's scars could have come from something besides The Fire. Ha! Well, probably not radiation, but anything is possible until they tell us what really happened. Red should have been out to sea at the time Chernobyl happened, but he could have been assigned to the area or who knows what, if he was some sort of intelligence genius or part of a secret operation based on not just what he knew, but who he was.
Anyway, off to work!

lara1 · 11/05/2016 10:32 am

Honey West #103 - that all makes sense to me. And, I think that Red has recently shown signs that he is figuring out that part of what Kaplan said rings true, he has to back off. I'm not sure he's convinced that it was all true, or all the right thing but he does need to back off or risk losing Liz, perhaps.

I think its a huge conundrum though because as Red said to Harold, Red's coming back and into Liz's life meant that Red would have to step up security etc. Now that Red is in the middle of things, arguably Liz is less safe overall (but maybe safer in individual scenarios). But part of me thinks Red always knew that and in his risk analysis (whatever his endgame) that is how he proceeded.

I think that part of the fall finale cliff hanger will be Dembe confronting Red about Kaplan in some way. It would be awesome if Kaplan helped to save Red. My only reservation about that is that in the promo photos she still looks to be in the cabin. But that doesn't mean she doesn't escape and we of course are not going to be shown that!

lara1 · 11/05/2016 10:35 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - Refresh my memory. How do we know what Howard looks like?

Hi Tuxie400 - the photo of Scottie, Howard and Christopher on the beach. Of course no one actually confirmed that is Howard but I assumed it based on Scottie's story of how the three of them were there and then little Christopher went missing. It could be someone other than Howard in that photo. for now, though I am going with it being Howard.

Edited to add: ah I just remembered. I think the actor who is in the photo got credit for "howard" in that episode. Not entirely sure, though. But I think I read that somewhere......

Last edited by lara1 (11/05/2016 10:38 am)

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/05/2016 10:33 pm

If Vegas was taking odds on who will be primarily responsible for saving Red (they can't do it cuz the outcome is already in the can - internal producers/directors, etc. could simply lay millions on an internally known outcome!!!

Anyways, Vegas odds would be:

33% on Kaplan & Dembe plus a small assault team
20% on LIz w/ Tom and members of Tom's team
15% on a Baz assembled team
15% on Scottie and some of her team
10% on Kirk turning the weapon on himself, thus saving Red by default
7% - other

Tuxie400 · 11/06/2016 9:42 am

BBB - I like your odds. I would love to see Kaplan and Dembe for the save. Plus, I think Tom might be in on, having enlisted the aid of Scottie's team. It may be that he has to repay Scottie for the Red save by working for her.

Tabasko · 11/06/2016 9:42 am

lara1 wrote:
Tabs #90 I wondered for a moment if the hospital DNA was faked, but if it was, it wasnt Red. He seemed surprised by it and i doubt he'd put Liz in danger. So the question is did someone else? Evil kirk assistant?

Somehow though, i think the 30 year old test was the one manipulated and put in the file. Red didnt seem phased by it, and kirk didnt seem to know about it.

I agree with your comment - "creepy" Kirk saying, "Masha you will save me"

If anyone hasnt read the Entertainment Weekly recap of the episode, i highly recommend it. It is highly entertaining and makes that "creepy" kirk point too, Tabs!

LOL- that is funny! I do like the EW recaps.

I agree-- Red did not have any apparent knowledge of the hospital DNA test, and Spader is too good an actor to have registered mild surprise there for no reason.

I don't remember why Kirk would not know about the test in the file that Tom obtained? The "older" one? I do also figure that would be the faked one. I hope we will see soon.

I'm sitting here trying to remember if Liz had any actual memories of Kirk in her recall at "The Summer Palace." I feel like they were only of her mother. What if Red was there with KR?

Tabasko · 11/06/2016 9:45 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - Thanks for the link to the Highlights puzzle. I found the sailboat right away too. Still looking for the banana.

Tabs - I also would be upset if my dh checked in for a medical procedure without telling me. Tom really has a lot of patience with Liz. What I couldn't believe was that both parents left Agnes right after getting her back. And Liz didn't even ask Tom who was watching her.

Yes, really!! I barely left the house when my daughter was that small! That's your major bonding time! I guess I didn't have as many international incidents brewing, but really!

Tabasko · 11/06/2016 9:51 am

Tuxie400: I lost the comment as I am reading, but that is interesting about the Curie name. Good catch.

I do think there is some reason they gave Kirk his background in energy and that there was some mention of a problem in the past. I think at the time a few of us wondered if there was something like that happened, maybe some kind of contamination.

I need to look back and see but I think Red was he source of the info that Kirk had a genetic problem. Hmmm.

Tuxie400 · 11/06/2016 11:28 am

New wild theory: What if Liz grew up knowing her mother all along? What if Katarina is "Aunt June?" I still have hope that Katarina will show up alive and well at some point. I'd love to see her show up to save Red.

deadskie13 · 11/06/2016 3:46 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Now that Agnes is safe, Red seemed like his old enthusiastic self again when telling stories and extracting information. Spader's scenes were all very entertaining. I cracked up when he was trying to find all the objects in the Highlights Magazine and Dembe knew where the last one was.

I loved the whole spear fishing story between Liz and Red. It was very much like old times, but not. What I mean is, Red tosses out a story, and Liz is mildly amused--but this go around, she's already caught on that it correlates directly with Kirk and what's going on at hand, whereas before, she may have been a bit more dismissive than not, in wanting a straight answer. And so perhaps this is a bit of a prelude to Lizzy realizing Red has been giving her straight answers--just in a infuriatingly Red kind of round about way. ^-^

It was also great to see that little Highlight scene between Dembe and Red, because it shows that even though Dembe didn't agree with Red's treatment of Kaplan, they're still on the same page, grabbing clues and looking at the same picture, so to speak. In that regard, Dembe's able to see the piece to the puzzle that Red has missed--but with Dembe's help, Red will get there. ^-^ I do believe their friendship is pretty much my favorite of all time. :D

deadskie13 · 11/06/2016 3:48 pm

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
Next week probably bring's Kirk's arc to an end - and introduces us to at least one new major sub-plot. Also, some new cast directions for Tom (eligible for his own spin-off) and one or two regular cast members. The Kaplan/Mountain Man arc should be substantially advanced.
Other than Kirk one or two major/minor cast members take a bullet....

I was kind of wondering if maybe that's not what they're doing; if they're setting up Kaplan to make the leap from Blacklist to Redemption. It would be a snazzy way to cross over, and smooth any rough edges, so to speak--to send a few heavy-hitters over, in special guest appearances and all. And Kaplan is definitely a favorite. ^-^

(Tom Waits for the win, by the way!) :D

deadskie13 · 11/06/2016 3:57 pm

Honey West wrote:
Agree. I have thought since she got shot and survived that she might be around to save Red or Liz at some point. At the very least she might serve as a means for Red to "undo" something bad that he did. Shooting Kate for betraying him would be what he "had to do", and even Kate said that to Tom. But it really goes back to Red's core principle that he only kills those who deserve to die. He becomes their judge and executioner. Kate tried to make her case that what she did was best for him, that she was protecting him from himself. She knew Liz was his vulnerable spot and like in the creepy painting, Liz would be the death of him in the end. Heck, maybe Kate sent the painting? We don't know for sure it was Kirk. I don't think he ever admitted it, although I think Red thinks he knows who sent it. But anyway, it comes down to whether Red still thinks that Kate deserved to die for what she did. Was it a capital crime in his mind? He seems very cold about it, and you have to think that maybe he is not so sure, but of course, what's done is done, and he can't go back, and he certainly can't show any uncertainty or emotion about it to anyone. But we know that as long as she's alive, maybe, he will be able to. We shall see. But I'm sure that Dembe, aka Red's Conscience, will have something to do with it. (w00t)

I think I remember reading somewhere that the creators said Kirk did send the painting. I'm pretty terrible at keeping sources of info as a reference point, though. :/ I very much like that Kate could be a link to Red's redemption in a way--a mistake that he didn't think he could ever correct, but then pwoof! The impossible can be done! :D

deadskie13 · 11/06/2016 4:30 pm

Gah! I love reading everyone's thoughts and theories--because the brilliant thing is, even if it's not what I'm leaning towards, it's still entirely plausible, and points me in all sorts of directions I otherwise wouldn't be looking! In short, everyone is amazing! :D

Right now, I'm still leaning towards Red being no one other than Red. I do think there's a lot of duality going on--but I think Reddington is who he so far has been said to be. Mainly because I think the whole Gregory Devry episode was a huge wink in that direction. I think it was Kodiak on the old boards that mentioned something along the lines of various plots being used to slowly give us a process of elimination, to lead us to the truth. And I very much agree. The great and brilliant thing, though, is that if ever there were a show with anything possible! :D

I also don't think there's any resemblance between Red and Sam and Kirk--other than the basics, of them being approximately the same age, with some sort of intersecting background, that we have yet to have the full story on. It's just my gut reaction, though, and nothing more. Based on Kirk's reaction to Liz tossing out Sam's name, when mentioning her adopted father, though, I don't think Kirk and Sam ever knew each other--if so, then Sam was using another name.

I also don't think Red is ill or sickly at all. I think the whole "You have NO idea" coupled with the smile, is an indication that Red's aware that he's a bit twisted at times, and in more ways than one. It's entirely possible, of course--but I think it would be too coincidental for Liz to have two potential bio-dads with two different illnesses. I tend to buy into it circling back into that whole process of elimination deal.

But again, those are just my thoughts on the matter, and nothing more. What I'm leaning towards, and such. Give it another few episodes, though, and all those things I'm leaning towards, could topple right over! :D

A few more notes from this go around:

Poor Kirk isn't a very charismatic fellow. Figure even though the Task Force didn't necessarily like Red at the start, he at least kept them entertained--infuriated and exasperated, but entertained.

Great cut to Red calling Liz on her cellphone the very second after Kirk says, "If this is what it took for you to call me father." Figure even if Red does end up being Liz's biological pops, he never necessarily wanted her to call him as such. Another nice opposite deal, comparing the two.

Red isn't angry or upset with Liz for showing compassion and empathy towards Kirk--he understands. And so the character growth continues! Despite all the disagreements him and Liz have had, I believe he does genuinely get her. He comprehends the kind of person she is, and why she takes the actions she does.

Giza is a daughter who killed her father. And so there's another father/daughter relationship to throw into the mix.

Latin! Gah! I was stupid and took Latin when I was in school. One of the greatest academic mistakes of my life! XD

Cooper telling Liz it's okay to talk to Kirk! I really like him! Isn't he the boss we all wish we had? ^-^

I find it odd that on his makeshift deathbed, Kirk tells Liz that he wants to tell her the "Truths about her (Katerina) and Reddington." Such an odd thing, considering he could have said he'd like to talk about him and Katerina, and about where Liz came from and such--but, well, you know, Kirk is kind of creepy and odd, so I suppose it fits. ^-^

I really dislike Kirk's assistant lady. What brilliant acting! To me, she's just as creepy as Solomon--and I had to look up pictures of Edi Gathegi just going about being a normal person, to prove to myself that he wasn't a sleaze. I'm a bit ridiculous at times. :D

Tom lies about his mom leaving him--he was taken. This is strange, considering he's been 110% honest with Liz as of late.

More Tetris pieces on the backs of the seats at the restaurant--but only the squiggly sort. Not like the restaurant in season 3, where there's more variety of shapes. I'm sure it means nothing, but it keeps jumping out at me. ^-^

Kirk tells Liz that all his life he wanted to protect her and keep her safe. We know this is entirely untrue, considering he hasn't done anything for her, except directly put her in the line of danger. Red, on the other hand, has protected her and kept her safe--at least to the best of his ability, among her being put in some very dangerous situations.

In the very first episode of The Blacklist, Red got out of a fully guarded hospital room with just a bit of rope. Kirk apparently needs a whole team for his extraction. I get that he's sick and all--but it still caused me to giggle a bit to myself.

Lizzy inherently thinks bad people are good; she's the one who tells Kirk that he is not her father--which, of course, is going to put her directly in the line of danger.

Red "flirting" with Samar, was a very clever way for him to find out exactly what all The Task Force knew, and where they were at in their search, without coughing up any goods, in return. So very clever.

I don't so much think Red looked surprised at the test results--he's been saying this whole time that Kirk is not her father, after all. Instead, I think that he was surprised that they were in a hospital in the first place. I kind of think that perhaps if there was any DNA tampering with Liz's initial result--the bit where she falsely found out she was Kirk's daughter--that maybe Katerina planted it all those years ago, to save her from the potential wrath of Kirk.

When Red finds out Liz's safety has been compromised, he instructs her to tell Harold, and then get out. He wants Cooper and Co. to be safe, too. :D

Big Badd Bazzer · 11/06/2016 8:17 pm

I think the best surprise of this season is the amazing acting performances by Anna Sirim (I think I abbreviated her name) as the creepy and mysterious Odette, Kirk's aide/mistress/associate. Totally riveting and now more people hate her than even Kirk, Karakurt or even Peter Stormare's revolting character!

A brilliant piece of acting by Anna! Hope they don't terminate her arc with Kirk's.. . . . . perhaps the FBI could use a conniving planner of her ilk - wouldn't it be something to partner her up with Samar?

lara1 · 11/06/2016 9:19 pm

deadskie13 - I do love reading your observations! A couple of notes on what you wrote:

#117: Great catch on Red calling Liz on her cellphone the moment after Kirk's statements in the box about "if this is what it took for you to call me Father, it was worth it." At various points in the series, they have done quick cuts to Red or a call between Liz and Red after they have given us a little reveal though we haven't known it at the time. The one I remember most vividly is back in Season 1, Liz I believe was looking through the box of her things from Sams' and she is having flashbacks of the fire while looking at the bunny. At that very moment, Red calls her. I forget whether that was "the" call when she ends up asking him whether he is her father, but in any event, I believe that was telling us that Red was there the night of the fire, that he was connected to her in that way and we the audience did not know that as yet. There are others, and I bet if one were to re-watch the entire series just focusing on cuts to/from Liz/Red on the screen, particularly with phone calls, there would be even more!

Anyway I wonder if that call from REd to Liz after that statement from Kirk was saying to us that at one point when she was a child, Liz called Red, father. Not to say that he is her father, but she called him that, perhaps because he helped look after her at some point. I like your observation though comparing Kirk to Red on this point.

I also thought it odd that Kirk wanted to tell Liz about Katarina and Reddington, rather than about things they (Kirk, Katarina and Liz) experienced together when she was a child. It does make me think he had nothing to do with raising her. And shows is he completely obsessed with Reddington, to the point (in my opinion) of insanity!

About Tom stating to Liz that his mother abandoned him rather than him being kidnapped, which I think others mentioned too. My guess is that is the story they've shared previously - that Tom was abandoned. He may not have wanted to open the whole kidnap, Scottie, Howard beach story to Liz on the phone while she was under emotional stress already. It would open a box perhaps better opened at a later date. Just a thought.

I like your observation that Red escaped the hospital on his own in the pilot yet Kirk needs an entire extraction team. Lots of things like that with mirror images between the two continue to fascinate me. Red in the box, Kirk in the box. Kirk saying to Liz it was worth it if that's what it took for her to call him Father. Meanwhile when Red is re-captured by the FBI and put in the metal cage in Ep 1.20, he says to Fitch's guy that the girl is worth it. But he would never say that to her face.

I didn't catch that Red flirted with Samar to get the info he wanted to draw out. Good catch! And yes the moment he had all the info he needed, he hung up the phone…! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (11/06/2016 9:23 pm)

lara1 · 11/06/2016 9:37 pm

BBB #108 and #118 LOL, you are so funny at times!

As for who saves Red - I would love for this to be a combination of Kaplan with someone else. But the more I am thinking about it, the more I think that the Kaplan arc may not be over this week. It may be part of a cliffhanger. Like maybe she escapes from the cabin or Dembe or someone else makes the discovery that she is not dead and/or finds her. I'm not sure the 40 minutes left before the hiatus will give us Kaplan saving Red action with everything else that seems to be on for this week. But, never say never!

My thought is that if Red is traded for Liz, Liz will work with the Task Force to try to find him/free him. That might lead to some interesting dilemmas within the team. Maybe Hitchens will try to thwart it - that would be a nice twist. Who else might want to be rid of Red?

Another thought is that Tom perhaps also teams up with Scottie to help. I doubt Tom can afford to pay for Halcyon's services but maybe they do some kind of deal, who knows. It might be a way for Tom to end up working for Scottie.

I agree that the actress who plays Kirk's evil assistant/lawyer/confidante with benefits is very good. I love the idea of her sticking around, maybe going to Red or to the Task Force. Speaking of which, I think that a new character generally should be added to the Task Force. Not that i don't like the existing Task Force Members, but I think it would be good at this point in the series to mix it up a bit. Been the same for a couple of seasons now, although they have done interesting things, like have Samar leave and work with Red to help exonerate Liz. But I think a new character (like the Spencer guy in Red's team) would provide a different perspective at this point.