The Blacklist Refugees » Season 5 Fall/Winter Hiatus Discussions

lara1 · 12/23/2017 6:18 pm

Oh yes, the only connection I've made with the candles, which is tenuous at best, is that candles were traditionally made from beeswax, which is of course made by bees, and there are various bee/honey references in the series. I can't figure out the bee references either, unless its a reference to KR or someone else as a "honey trap", but that reference as far as bees, swarming, honey and beekeepers is kind of a dead end. Still, it could be what it is. But I do think the candles mean something other than beeswax.....!

Tuxie400 · 12/23/2017 8:09 pm

lara1 - I posted that photo from Alistair Pitt on the Blacklist Exposed FB and on my Tumblr. It's a nice Christmas Blacklist image, and Red looks so happy there giving his gift to Josephine. I've never thought much about the candles elsewhere in the series. It's possible that one was knocked over and started Liz's fire. But I tend to think an adult started the fire intentionally. I think the candles are used more as fire or light imagery.

Speaking of imagery I missed the first time around, I saw another chess set I didn't remember in the Tom Connolly episode. When Liz goes to question Velov in his restaurant, the camera lingers on an empty table with a chess set.

lara1 · 12/23/2017 8:55 pm

Tuxie400 - I started to think about the candles after Cape May and the eps before it. In Cape May, both KR and Red hold votives at some point, and there are a lot of red votives around the kitchen when KR and Red have their dinner. Then Red explains to the cop why they are using candles. then all of that got me thinking about the scene in one of the Season 3 eps, where Liz accidentally causes a fire on the stove in her apt (where the smoke alarm goes off and Baz rushes in).

I tend to agree with you that the fire was probably set intentionally (perhaps to cover up evidence or a body), but it did give me pause for thought.

lara1 · 12/23/2017 9:01 pm

I have always been interested in the references to the Wizard of Oz in the series and at one point how Liz tells Red its her favorite childhood story. So now, of all things, I am watching the film on TV and I am struck by the Blacklist imagery.

Thus far I note Dorothy's RED slippers. She is of course, with her DOG in tow, off to see the wizard, the wise man (parallel to Red which we know),. in the EMERALD city (all that green I've picked up on since mid season 4); and when she and the scarecrow they find the tin man, he is in a CABIN in the WOODs, with APPLE trees in the background - and he is chopping wood with an AXE. The wicked witch (who is green), appears on the roof of the cabin, and conjures up a FIREBALL that she throws at the feet of the tin man before she disappears in a puff of RED SMOKE and flies off.

I'd forgotten all of this as its been years since I watched the movie though of course I did watch it many times as a child....stay tuned.

Last edited by lara1 (12/23/2017 9:02 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/23/2017 9:43 pm

lara1 - I had forgotten all the candles in Cape May. But it makes sense that they used candles since the electricity was probably turned off. And Liz did start that kitchen fire in Lady Ambrosia, the same episode with the Wizard of Oz references. I enjoyed your list of Oz imagery that applies to BL. Don't forget the witch setting the scarecrow on fire. That was always the scariest part for me.

I don't know if you were posting on BSG when I did my Wizard of Oz post. Like Dorothy, Liz believes she is an orphan and longs for a home. I think Tom, Ressler and Aram could be compared to the three males who help Dorothy on her quest. Ressler is like the Scarecrow who needs a brain. While Ressler is intelligent, he only sees the world in black and white absolutes before his journey with Liz. After his interactions with her, he's able to think more expansively, intuitively, and in the gray zones. Tom is the Tin Man is our tale - the man without a heart or emotions. It's only though his relationship with Liz that he learns what love and sacrifice are. Aram started the Blacklist as the Cowardly Lion. Remember how afraid he was of Reddington in the beginning? Now he's able to hold his own with Red and shoot a bazooka. And he doesn't have to pretend people are paper anymore.

lara1 · 12/23/2017 10:18 pm

Some more Wizard of Oz:

"Lions and tigers and bears oh my"...

The wicked witch, in her castle, watches the travelers in her crystal ball which alternatingly turns RED and GREEN....

The travelers reach the field of RED poppies that stands between them and the Emerald City on the horizon.....and fall fast asleep.....but the good witch sends SNOW that helps to awaken Dorothy.

When the witch captures Dorothy and locks her away in a room in the CASTLE, she turns the HOURGLASS upside down, saying that is as long as Dorothy has to live…..

And the witch tries to set the scarecrow on FIRE, and Dorothy throws water at it which of course results in the melting of the witch and in KILLING her.

At then end, Dorothy is told by the good witch that she always had the power to go back to Kansas. Why didn’t you tell her? Asks the scarecrow. She wouldn’t have believed me, she had to learn it for herself., replies the good witch . Sounds just like Red and Liz in Seasons 1/2....

Last edited by lara1 (12/23/2017 10:19 pm)

lara1 · 12/23/2017 10:21 pm

Tuxie400 - good observations on Wizard of Oz. I was trying to work out who was who! And is Cooper in there somewhere? the first thing I thought of when I saw the wicked witch was Kaplan!, because of how Kaplan came off the rails at the end and her (the witch's) bright green skin, the same color that kept popping up all over REquiem. . LOL.

Cape May - yes, I thought the same with the candles, and the candles in the church in Solomon Conclusion as well. But then I thought, we were shown that votive very clearly in the Pilot. And votives have popped up ever since. But what they mean (if anything) is a mystery. LOL

Last edited by lara1 (12/23/2017 10:23 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/23/2017 10:39 pm

lara - I was really torn about whether Red was the wizard or the Glinda the Good Witch. After all, in Lady Ambrosia he describes himself as a fairy godmother and he has shown himself to be a great forehead kisser like she was. LOL I really don't see parallels for Samar or Cooper in the book/movie. Hitchins might be the Wicked Witch and Solomon, king of the flying monkeys with his satellite powers. Glen would be a good munchkin.

Where was the votive candle in the Pilot? Apparently candles were not anything I ever filed away in my memory.

Tuxie400 · 12/24/2017 10:38 am

I still don't remember the votive candle in the pilot. But I do remember the two unlit taper candles on the table in front of a tortured Tom.

Candles are used in the Catholic and Orthodox churches in prayers for the dead, especially those who might be in misery between heaven and hell. I think we discussed this once a long time ago in talking about the candles in Cape May.

lara1 · 12/24/2017 12:07 pm

Tuxie400 - yes, I thought the same as I watched Glenda (who by the way has red hair) the good witch telling Dorothy that she always had the means to go home, she always had the answer, but she had to find it for herself. That she wouldn't believe Glenda if she told her. Reminded me so much of Red (or rather the other way around lol). But I won't go into what theory that may also support.......

I also think Glenda tells Dorothy something before she departs on the yellow brick road, I can't remember (I missed the beginning of the film last night) which might also point to Red. Something about maybe, that she isn't silly, or something like that. Like Red said to Liz, there's nothing wrong with you, in the boat after the Tom fiasco....anyways....

I do wonder though who the Wizard represents (if not Red). Dorothy is told to seek out the wizard, who will help her. It turns out, he's an illusion, who can't help her in the way she thinks. But, he can help her, in a way she hadn't thought of. Though in the end he floats away, but she learns she has the power within herself anyway. I'm drawing a blank on who that might be.....but no doubt I'll think of something.....LOL

Now, off to last minute Christmas chores. Happy holidays everyone!

Last edited by lara1 (12/24/2017 12:11 pm)

lara1 · 12/24/2017 12:10 pm

oh, Tuxie, the votive - there was a photo in Red's file as Ressler is narrating how Red disappeared on Christmas Eve. I can't remember exactly, but I think there were three hands around a votive candle. Like people light as part of a public vigil. Assumed it was family, friends or neighbors holding vigil for his return. But could be something different. I think they showed in again in Braxton as part of the TV news report on his re-capture. But I don't think they have shown it since and its not in the Elizabeth Keen Dossier book, nor is that photo of Red with the glasses. Just the page of his fingerprints and the wanted poster.

See you later this week!

Tuxie400 · 12/24/2017 12:56 pm

lara1 - I definitely didn't remember the photo of the votive in Red's file. I do remember in the original pilot script, there was dialog about Red's family holding a candlelight vigil after he disappeared. I guess that idea got distilled down to the photo.

I was watching my favorite movie of all time recently - The Untouchables - and could even see parallels with BL in it. For me, all roads lead to the BL. It really is like six degrees of separation. LOL I was especially struck with how much the Red character is like DeNiro's Al Capone in that move. He's a ruthless criminal capable of horrific violence, but yet a highly entertaining humorist and a man of culture and fashion. As with Red, there are scenes with Capone being shaved, wearing tuxes, and attending formal dinners with his associates. The dramatic scene with Capone at the opera reminds me of Red at Swan Lake, only because of the high culture and dramatic music. Kevin Costner's earnest Ness sees things only in back and white and reminds me a lot of Ressler. Ness is part of a four-person FBI task force. The Post Office is the site of one of Capone's operations, and Union Station is another setting that plays a big role in the plot. Using cons and thinking outside the box were keys to that task force's success. The scene with Ness chasing a criminal who goes over the side of a wall, then trying to pull him up, and then sending him over the side to his death was very reminiscent of Red and Wendigo in the Arioch Cain episode.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (12/24/2017 1:29 pm)

12/26/2017 3:32 pm

I hope everyone had a relaxing holiday weekend.

Off topic from the previous posts, but does anyone hear much about Megan and James' interactions in RL? It doesn't seem that James spends time much with costars off set (from anything he's worked on to my understanding), but I wonder sometimes how well they get along between takes or when not in character because they have such good chemistry on screen.

Tuxie400 · 12/26/2017 4:36 pm

James doesn't socialize with his Blacklist co-stars - at all. He seems to keep to himself. The rest of the cast seems to have formed close personal bonds and friendships. But from everything I've read, James and Megan seem to have a good working relationship.

12/26/2017 4:56 pm

Thanks Tuxie. I’ve never seen him anywhere with any of them so I figured he probably didn’t. I seem to remember reading an interview with William Shatner about when the worked on Boston Legal together how James had pretty firm boundaries. I definitely get that. I’m glad they seem to have a good working relationship. I always hate hearing that people who do great on screen can’t stand each other (a la Sara Jessica Parker and Kim Catrall).

lara1 · 12/26/2017 11:48 pm

Just a couple more Wizard of Oz things to add to #144 and 146.

Glinda - the good witch of the NORTH

The scarecrow is most afraid of FIRE

Dorothy’s family are FARMERS

Dorothy - last name is GALE

Dorothy calls the Wizard a “very bad man”. (He replies that he is not a bad man just a very bad wizard)

And didn't Dorothy click her heels THREE times in order to go "home"....

And I read these interesting things about the book and its author:

- one of the influences for the Wizard of Oz book was Alice in Wonderland. Not symbols but the overall idea. I never knew that, but can see now how that could be. Interesting that it points to Alice.

Baum wrote a play called Matches. In 1880, it was being performed when a flicker from a kerosene lantern sparked a fire, causing the Baum opera house to be consumed by flames.

Last edited by lara1 (12/26/2017 11:50 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/27/2017 11:12 am

lara1 - I enjoyed reading your additional connections from The Wizard of Oz. I hadn't remembered Dorothy calling the wizard a very bad man. And I didn't know one of the author's influences was Alice in Wonderland.

lara1 · 12/27/2017 6:49 pm

Tuxie400 - glad you liked it. Yes, Dorothy calls the wizard a "very bad man" toward the end, when they bring him the broomstick of the vanquished witch, and he (Oz) dismisses them and tells them to come back tomorrow. Basically, he broke his word to them - or, said another way, he lied to them or at least, misled them. Hmmm. But of course I linked that back to what KR said to Liz after the fire....

And I checked the script - Glinda does tell Dorothy to click her heels three times before repeating, there's no place like home, in order to go home.

And back in Lady Ambrosia - Liz explains to Red why Wizard was her favorite book - "You just can't beat a farm girl in great shoes."

Last edited by lara1 (12/27/2017 6:50 pm)

lara1 · 12/29/2017 12:04 am

So, tonight I watched eps 2 and 3 - Freelancer and Wujing, 2 of my favorite episodes. I've previously watched both a couple of times, but I haven't re-visited them in a while. And I was very struck by all of the references to two of things; pairs, doubles, mirrors, etc. I had noticed many of them before, but I saw and heard some additional ones, and they really add up. One of the most obvious ones, that I never thought of was Meera: pronounced in a. similar way to mirror. And when we first meet her in The Freelancer, she is wearing red. Anyway, let me know if any of you have any thoughts, here are the ones I picked up

Freelancer
- Red is first shown with his image in the mirror in the interrogation room
- The scenes with him are mirrored by those with Liz in the interrogation room and the Q&As overlap between the two
- In the restaurant, Red proposes that Liz is his girlfriend from Ann Arbor, then his daughter
- Red to Floriana Campo: has does the devil in you contend with the angel
- Red says to Liz that the headline in the paper will read, "Italian dog born with two heads,"
- Red. talks to Liz twice about the two options she has about Tom
- Cooper is asked to pick out the 2 least onerous of the people submitted by Red, to be his protectors
-We are introduced to "meera"

Wuijing
-Wujing was a second child
- Red is playing chess in the park but before we see him, we see his image in the reflecting pool
-Red's glasses in the same scene show double chessboards
- Tom is out of the hospital and when talking to Liz at home, explains to her that what happened, happened to "both of us"
- Red looks in the mirror, trying on hats in the hat shop
- Red says to the man in the shop, he'll take "both" - double hats
- the decoded message for Wuijing will be sent simultaneously to the Chinese and to the FBI
- in the FBI stake out in the bakery monitoring Liz and Red while they meet with Wujing, Aram has set up two computer screens. (something that seemed innocuous at the time, or maybe not even noticed, but in retrospect, a bit unusual, IMO)
- The device that Meera has given Liz is called a "remote mirroring device"
- the last scene with Red in the episode - as Red sits to dine alone, there are two candles, one on either side of him, and two spare glasses to the side of him (again innocuous at first glance, but totally superfluous as he already has a wine glass and a water glass to his right). At this point, the song is playing the line '....you are always here with me....."....pause as Red thinks, then "....with me". end.

We also get a few mirrored images/dialog:
-Red says to Floriana Campo, "I've never liked you". what he later says to Scottie (who by the way is also a brunette wearing red)
- And maybe one of the most interesting ones: Liz has the ballistics report run on the bullets from the gun in Tom's go box. She pulls over in the car to read it on the way home:

it's a large manila envelope, with a large rectangular sticker on the front of it that reads, "BALLISTICS REPORT". Same type of envelope, and very similar sticker to the DNA REPORT. They are mirror images of each other.

I frequently think about the double themes in TBL, This is definitely pointing to something, IMO. But it could be one of several theories, LOL. Are there two Reds; a real/an imposter; a twin brother; are there two Elizabeths? a twin? or just another girl named Elizabeth? or even, Rederina. LOL

Tuxie400 - more to come.....

EDITED TO ADD: oh, I left out Ellie, whom we are introduced to. She reappears later in the series as someone else (I can't recall who exactly off the top of my head....)

Last edited by lara1 (12/29/2017 12:06 am)

lara1 · 12/29/2017 12:19 am

So, here are a couple more things about these two episodes:

In the Freelancer, Red says to the task force that his next blacklister is an "absolute snake"
number 3:
3,000 innocent civilians have died
Red says to Liz she has a third option with Tom
The transmitter put on Liz has a range of 300 yards
Red says he once spent 3 weeks in a shipping container

Red says to Liz re the selling of secrets: You make it sound so black and white. Its not - its green.

But the most interesting thing to me was the ballistics report mirroring the DNA report. When Ressler shows it to Cooper and explains that at Liz's level, its all confidential so redacted in the report she received. Cooper says, its not just confidential, but the head of national security (forgot who that was at the time), needs to be briefed on any conversations involving it.

What if the DNA report came back and said the same thing? That the official government results were classified? And only part of it was shown? Not sure if that would be enough for Tom to piece things together, but the idea is intriguing.

but anyway it did get me thinking about the Fokin murder again which I think Brittany raised recently. It makes me think more strongly that this was not just Red killing someone off or arranging for him to be killed and/or framing Tom. Seems deeper if national security is involved and its basically top secret. Well that's my thought anyway. who knows......