The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.6 "The Thrushes" Discussion

Big Badd Bazzer · 10/30/2016 7:57 pm

Here's an outside review of "The Thrushes' by tvline's Nick Hogan. I can't imagine the guy didn't see Elise coming as a plant into Aram's life (and thus the entire FBI). Clueless does as clueless is.
Otherwise, decent review but off the core of our main discussions!

http://www.tvovermind.com/the-blacklist/blacklist-review-aram-shouldnt-date-girlfriend-spy#comment-512017

Tabasko · 10/30/2016 7:57 pm

I think a number of my favorite lines from this one have been pointed out. There were some good ones.

I will have to check back, but hadn't Liz already mentioned to someone on the Task Force, maybe even Cooper, that she wondered if Kirk was her father? I thought Cooper already knew she had the suspicion before this week. So it didn't surprise me when Cooper was talking to Red about it.

It did surprise me that Kirk wasn't really on the list but for coming for Liz. That makes me really doubt Red saw him as a threat to come for Liz before he did. Bizarre.

It also occurred to me (apologize if this is repetitive) but Kirk himself did say in 4.1 he thought Red was Liz's father at one point, but he had proof that Red was not. So he doesn't even know for sure but for the DNA. But he does seem to believe it pretty strongly, unless he is being sarcastic when he is with Odette alone, but that seems unlikely.

I appreciated the Oingo Boingo song an awful lot!!

So many good comments to catch up on and hi to LDJones!

lara1 · 10/30/2016 10:41 pm

Well, between the weekend long marathon of Dark Shadows and now another one of Hitchcock's horror type films (Psycho; the Birds) i still managed a re-watch of Ep 6 (I know my priorities, LOL!)

I will write some more tomorrow, but will mention 2 things quickly:

- did anyone notice that the hidden motion cameras used by mountain man had what looks like camouflage type camera bodies? I don't know much about such things but I wonder if they were military or spy type issue? I don't think cameras you buy at the local shop are camouflage issue. Or maybe they are. but if mountain man is only tracking wildlife why does he need to disguise the cameras to that extent? just a thought. ex-cia or other, gone off the grid?

- Colleen P.- did you notice that Aram's er, ahem, bed linens had triangles embroidered? at the top of the flat sheets and pillowcase. if only we had a definitive answer as to what these triangle symbols mean. I know you were really good at digging into some of the meanings. maybe a meaning not specific to Liz per se but a meaning that applies to her as well as to others, or maybe a mathematical symbol/problem usage. hmmmm

BBB # 121 - thanks for that link. its always interesting to get different people's perspectives on an episode.

Last edited by lara1 (10/30/2016 10:48 pm)

lara1 · 10/30/2016 11:07 pm

Tabs #122 - I also thought it was strange that Kirk was not on the list and it makes me wonder whether the list is other than what we think . But i think that conversation with red and Cooper at least confirms that red knew Kirk was Constantin and that Red knew Kirk was alive before he came after Liz. also makes sense why Red seemed to know right away who it was who was after Liz and that she was being targeted for abduction, not a hit. But i do find it strange that Red never went after Kirk especially as they were enemies anyway. Maybe he felt that Liz was well enough hidden or maybe Red and Kirk are in fact related in some way (not brothers as I think one of the producers already confirmed).

good point about what Kirk said in ep.1 I am still trying to work out my "Liz is not Masha" theory, LOL. And what if that Summer Palace memory Liz had of her mother was a planted memory, to further along the deceit? Maybe not, but when it comes to Liz's memories I'm not sure we can trust much about them!

Last edited by lara1 (10/30/2016 11:09 pm)

Kodiak · 10/31/2016 9:41 am

Tabs #122 You are right as far as I can tell, too. Red told Harold both of Kirk's names in "Mato" and by "Miles McGrath", Ressler knew Liz was considering that Kirk might be her father. I don't think at all he had any advance knowledge of that.

Lara1 #124 I also agree that Red knew Kirk was alive. Way back when we first met him, Red seemed quite unsurprised as to who was about to show up. Maybe he figured Kirk did not think he was Liz's father (per Tabs' reminder from "Esteban" about what Kirk said) and would not be coming for Liz, but something must have changed for Kirk, I guess this DNA report. But where that came from seems suspect.

I will chime in with everyone and say I thought this was the best ep of S4. And I am hopeful the Agnes drama is over.

Patter · 10/31/2016 11:31 am

One thing I'm trying to work out is that Red told Cooper that Kirk was his to take care of, but Kirk ends up in the box at the PO. I haven't rewatched, but wasn't it only Red's team who showed up with Liz to rescue Agnes. Even though Red got clipped and regardless of Liz's pleas for answers, why didn't his team take Kirk out when Agnes was placed in Liz's arms? There has to be more to Red & Kirk's history then just a woman who produced a child. Or did I miss some kind of agreement between Red & Liz?

Tuxie400 · 10/31/2016 1:07 pm

Lara, Tabs and others - I wasn't surprised at all that Kirk was not on Red's list. Red didn't want Liz anywhere near Kirk. After all, Ray kidnapped her as a baby, presumably to keep her away from Kirk. Why take the chance Kirk would figure out Liz was Masha.

Patter - I agree with what you are saying. Kirk should have been Red's to take care of, but somehow he ends up in FBI custody. There was nothing on screen about an agreement between Liz and Red about Kirk, but Liz may have made it a condition of Red's knowing the real location of her meeting with her "father."

Honey West · 10/31/2016 1:23 pm

Patter #126, those are very good questions. Also I thought Kirk missed a perfect opportunity to finish Red up on the rooftop. We know Liz doesn't want Kirk killed, maybe she made Red promise not to do it. And Liz was equally upset when she learned that Kirk planned to kill Red. And now we know, based on the Red/Cooper coffee talk that Kirk wasn't even on Red's list in the beginning. Red acted like he knew Kirk was around all that time, but wasn't a perceived threat to Elizabeth Keen. The Connolly shooting put Masha Rostova into the headlines and got Kirk going. It gave him the opportunity to connect with her. Whether he had originally backed out of her life like Dom, we don't know, (I'm thinking of his "I've waited 25 years for this" line) but once she was outed he felt free to try to make contact. So once her cover was blown it wouldn't matter if he came back into her life, but since it's all so "complicated" he couldn't just phone her and say, "Hi, Masha, it's me, Daddy!" And besides, that would be kind of a boring story, if it was that easy. (cheerful)

I keep thinking that we may get the story of Liz's origins this season, but we still won't be given the "why" part or the what's so important about it part.

lara1 · 10/31/2016 1:40 pm

Tuxie400, patter and Honey West - that makes sense that Kirk wasn't on the list as Red probably never wanted them to know about each other. On the rooftop Red ordered his men to stand down I think it was too dangerous with the baby around. Then when Kirk gave up the baby, he also threw down his gun

I think at that point Red would not take a shot at an unarmed Kirk in front of Liz. If Kirk still had a gun and was a threat I think he would have. I also think Red might have taken out Kirk if Liz was not there

Still, I think it may have been a trade off for Liz working with Red to get Kirk.

The skeptic in me also wonders whether the whole baby thing was a ploy by Kirk to be captured. I agree it's strange he did not shoot to kill Red. Maybe Kirk plans to kill red slowly by what he divulged once in the box. We shall see!

Last edited by lara1 (10/31/2016 2:23 pm)

lara1 · 10/31/2016 10:20 pm

I have looked at my notes on the episode and I don't have much to add to what others and I have noted previously on any themes that came up this time around. A couple of small things:

Colleen P. - the pattern on Kaplan's blouse looks like triangles!

Colleen P and Tabs - now that I think we are looking for checkered patterns (St. Nick's cloak and Red's chess games), the square mosaic detail on the wall behind Samar when she meets her contact at the restaurant resembles a checkerboard; and the fabric pattern on the seating is also a check.

A couple of mentions of fire in the dialog this time and last (Aram not wanting Elise to set things on fire; Panabaker to Harold about a 5 alarm fire to national security. ) I wonder if we are going to get a reveal about fire night by the Fall finale.....

The poker game of Panabaker's that Harold attends - nice tie in to the poker game in Ep. 4.01

Of course my favorite, Nick's pizza in the red and white boxes! LOL

A final perhaps interesting thought: "significant" people in the "box":

Red
DeVry
Kirk

and
Liz

Last edited by lara1 (10/31/2016 10:20 pm)

Colleen · 11/01/2016 12:17 pm

Hi Everyone! Started working again on the triangle and // symbols - and to incorporate the checkered pattern – fingers crossed.
Just wanted to let folks know there is some sort of free Blacklist escape game in NYC – featuring THE BOX! I live a few hours away so will try to get there before it ends next month, but here is an article about it:
https://roomescapeartist.com/2016/10/30/escape-games-at-sony-square-nyc-the-blacklist-box-timeless-lifeboat/

lara1 · 11/01/2016 4:16 pm

HI Colleen, thanks for that, sounds like fun! I would love just to have my photo taken in the "box"! LOL.

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 9:58 pm

Honey West wrote:
The only problem is that it can't be that simple. So Red had an affair with a married KGB agent. She had a baby, possibly his. How is that so "complicated" that he can't tell his possible kid anything about it all these years later? they are all adults now. Surely it can't be that he just can't admit that to her. No. There's got to be a really good twist to the story and Liz knows that Red is the one she has to dig that information out of. Don't forget she is supposed to be a psychologist and a profiler. Once she gets a chance to slow down and regain her balance she ought to be able to get her questions answered. But Red sees to it that she is kept enough off balance that she has a hard time working on him. Plus she's good at being her own worst enemy most of the time. Anyway, Red told her in the beginning that there were truths out there that she would need to discover for herself.

I know it's not a whole lot to go on, but I think part of the whole deal is, Red is damaged, and in more than one way. What I mean is, I think he did have another family, and that something horrible happened--that at the very least, he lost a daughter. And while it might not be the most interesting and/or compelling reason to not cough up the biological paternal goods, I do think that it would make sense on some sort of emotional level. Because in Red's mind, people knowing about his family equals the death of those he loves. If that makes sense? I don't know. It's been something I've been kicking around.

I agree 100% that Lizzy should be able to figure things out, if she had a few quiet moments to herself, and didn't get emotionally involved. I think she's too close to Red, in that regard--that she wants answers from him so badly, that even when they're staring her right in the face, she misses them. I suspect we end up doing the same with all our analyzing.

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:00 pm

Honey West wrote:
Okay, Kirk agreed with Red that it had to end now and then took a shot at him, grazing his arm. Is Kirk really a bad shot or did he do that on purpose? He intended to kill Red, but when he had the chance to actually do it himself, he basically missed. It reminded me of the time that Tom also "missed". And we know Tom is a good shot. I'm starting to wonder if Red is made of teflon. Or Kevlar. The Cabal's sniper even had a clear shot at him and couldn't get the job done. Of course, the obvious answer is you can't kill off the star of the show. (ermm)

I think Tom's shot was a warning. I get the impression that Kirk isn't much of an action man, though. I imagine his illness has caused him to stay away from the front lines. Either that, or Tom and Kirk are secretly Stormtroopers. ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:05 pm

Patter wrote:
The music when Baz and Co. first appear is so so hilariously awesome.

That's "Dead Man's Party" by Oingo Boingo! My second favorite music group of all time! ::stands on tippy-toes and waves hands all about, and EVERYTHING:: They're kind of obscure, and not too terribly known these days, since they went out in 1996. I died in the best way possible when I heard the first note! Ahhh, good old Danny Elfman. ^-^

Now, if they'd just use a White Stripes song....

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:13 pm

lara1 wrote:
I'm wondering if there is another reason why Kirk was not on Red's Blacklist - did he not know that Kirk was Constantin and/or did we think he was in fact dead? But based on their interactions and what Red knew of Kirk back in Season 3, it doesn't seem that way. And, he did add Kirk as #14. Not sure I know what the numbers really represent, but if the higher the number, the more dangerous to Red's endgame (whatever it is) I would have expected Red to slot Kirk in at a higher number. It really does make me think there is more to it (why Kirk was not on the Blacklist) than what Red said and whether the Blacklist and Red's endgame is different to what we may have thought previously.

I believe that Kirk legitimately raised Lizzy as his own daughter, when she was really young. Given as such, I think Red was doing him a common courtesy, much like the free pass he's given Tom--"to harm her father would be a mortal sin" and all. And so while Kirk may not be Elizabeth's father, he at least acted as such for a short period of time, therefore bonding with little Lizzy on some kind of level. The last thing Red ever wants to do, is directly harm Elizabeth. To go after her stand in pops? stepfather? the guy who raised her from an early age? Whatever you want to call him--to go after Kirk deliberately, and unprovoked, would, I believe, be very un-Reddington-like. But that's just my take on it, and where I am at the moment. ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:19 pm

Honey West wrote:
So, I have to say I really like the Red scenes that Daniel Knauf writes. I feel that he has a good handle on who the real Red is, where he's come from and where he thinks he's going. The scene with Cooper and Red was excellent. Not a lot of words, but a lot of feeling and depth in what was said. Red had no idea when he turned himself in how badly things would go. And things just keep getting worse. He's been forced to basically lock Liz up for her own safety but he realizes that he is suffocating her. And that seems like it wasn't supposed to happen that way and he knows it's not right. Cooper seems to know more than we thought. I suspect he knows what Red is really all about. Maybe not every detail, but he knows what he needs to know in order to maintain the Task Force's role. And there have been indications that others know it, too. We, the audience, are not among that group, though, we get to guess along with Liz and as things are revealed to her, then we will find out, too. Her character is our representative. We do get clues that Liz doesn't, though, like Red's scars, the letter he burned, etc., so we get pulled into the story in a slightly different way, and also if all we had was what Liz knows, it might not keep us quite as interested in the plot. Everybody loves a good guessing game, and there's plenty of that for all of us, that's for sure!

ME TOO on the Knauf dealy-o! :D I really do love the moments of vulnerability between Cooper and Red. Granted, usually in Cooper's case, it's because Red's already found something out about Harold's personal life. But when Red chooses to be vulnerable--when he takes a step towards humanizing himself around Cooper--it shows tremendous character growth. Because here's a guy who's maybe trusted two people his entire life--and we know one of them just "betrayed" him. But there he is, even after the Kaplan fiasco, trying to reach out. And I think that's important, too. That Red didn't withdraw; that instead, he's taken two steps forward. That, compounded with his willingness to take two steps away from Liz, shows that he's learning. And I've been looking forward to those little moments, since this season started, and all signs pointed to Lessons Red Needs To Learn 101. Brilliant writing and execution all around!

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:26 pm

lara1 wrote:
Honey West #97 - reading your post and thinking about Red and Harold's conversation, I was wondering what are your thoughts on Red being deep deep cover? With maybe Harold being the, or at least, a, facilitator? I think during the summer break that was discussed a bit - the idea of Red being very deep undercover - I can't recall whether it was you or someone else who may have mentioned that theory. Recent developments may start to point in that direction. But how it would tie in to the whole Rostov/Rostova story I don't know.

I also feel like the series is gearing up for a major 180 degree turn in course or maybe even a 360 as we get more reveals and pieces of info from now up through the fall finale.

A re-watch of this episode is definitely in order this weekend!

Oh, goodness! This is such a good bit to contemplate, and I'm trying to make the rounds fairly quick, since I got such a late start this week. That being said, the short-short version of my views on this theory are this: I wouldn't necessarily mind if Red was deep-deep undercover--but if so, I very much don't want him to be squeaky clean. What I mean is, I don't want his journey to be a linear one. A deep-deep undercover Red would kind of excuse all that he's done, and I think that would somehow lesson the terrible and often times difficult things we've seen that he's had to do. And so I guess what I mean is, I prefer an untethered Red, going about, doing his thing--but either one is fair game. We should play devil's advocate with that one, at some point in time! ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:29 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
I would imagine being Reds daughter would be a rather bad spot with so many people who would like to have him out of the way. And since we are under the impression that he may have had a daughter who was killed already he may not want to risk that again. Since She does not seam to understand how being the daughter of KR is a problem I can see where he may think that until she figures it all out herself she wont be ready for whoever it is. As you said, she is her own worse enemy at times.

Sorry Eastcoast! I responded with something similar, before getting to your post. But I definitely agree. Being Red's kiddo would have a lot of financial perks--but not much else.

deadskie13 · 11/02/2016 10:34 pm

David wrote:
I haven't yet read most of the posts for this episode. Pardon me if I am repeating what someone has already posted. Here's my revised theory: Red is Liz's father. Red doctored the DNA to point to Kirk. Red wanted to get Kirk dead or locked up. Liz was the angle to accomplish this. Kirk thought (but didn't know for sure, perhaps) that Liz was Kirk's daughter (that's why he gave Agnes up at the end). As Lara1 said, Kirk was surprised when Liz stated the DNA test results. Red doctored those results. Red has been trying to protect Liz from those who would capture or kill her to get at Red if they knew Liz was Red's daughter. Red tells Liz that he has never lied to her (and he said in Season 1 "I'm not your father.") That is Red's only lie.

I think we can actually be sneaky, and tip-toe around this one "lie" Red said. And the reason being is, I believe that when Red goes to Sam, and gives the speech about how Sam will always be Liz's father, it's because he gave up his parental rights, so to speak, when he left her with Sam. Red is, in a sense, acknowledging that he "died" that night, because he needed to be dead in order for Elizabeth to have a life to live. Sort of like how Dom said they all had to step out of her life. Also, there's that "tell" that Tom speaks about--he says Reddington's tell is his silence--and man, if there isn't a loooong pause between Lizzy asking the question, and Red giving the answer.