The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.5 "The Lindquist Concern" Discussion

Honey West · 10/24/2016 3:58 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
Honey west...
You mentioned the Chimera effect. That was weird becasue it is not something that comes up very ofen and
I was explainging this to someone a few weeks ago that never heard of it. We were discussing how people get off things because of DNA evidence and I said what if they had 2 sets of DNa? It does make you wonder??

Great observations on everything, east coast! But I will only say here that I was quite surprised to read that the chimera thing had affected actual police cases already. So it has been documented as an actual issue when it comes to using DNA evidence where the DNA sample was taken from blood.

Tatiana · 10/24/2016 4:19 pm

Honey West/ East Coast - great discussion about the DNA

I knew it was at least theoretically true that say a mother could have one kind of DNA and her baby could have a unrelated DNA, but I did not think it was as "common" as it actually is.

I saw this ABC production about a real woman who's children were not a DNA match. It turns out, she was her own twin:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/shes-twin/story?id=2315693

Tuxie400 · 10/24/2016 6:30 pm

Deadskie #107 - I agree with you and Tom that Red's tell is his silence.

Deadskie #108 - Thanks for the screen cap info on the invention. I bet you're right about Gen standing for genetic. It makes sense that it relates to a cure for Kirk's blood disorder.

Tatiana #114 - As for Kirk and Red being brothers, I think Bokenkamp said no when he was asked about that back in May.

Honey West · 10/24/2016 7:18 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Honey West/ East Coast - great discussion about the DNA

I knew it was at least theoretically true that say a mother could have one kind of DNA and her baby could have a unrelated DNA, but I did not think it was as "common" as it actually is.

Thanks for the link Tatiana, that's a really interesting story! So, as you can see, it can happen in utero as well as from stem cell transplants. I seem to remember an episode of "House" where he dealt with that twin issue. It was the first I'd ever heard of it.

Eastcoast · 10/24/2016 10:09 pm

Honey west,
I think genetics is a most interesting subject. I developed interest in that area due to my family.
Some may know this already but a lot of people don't. I am going to use my own family as an example.
I have a family of double genes. My great grandfather and grandmother had a brother and sister who also married each other. When you have 2 brothers marry 2 sisters their children actually share the same amount of genes that a half sibling would. So even though they are cousins they are closer related genetically just like a half brother and sister. So the cousins down the line are actually considered double cousins. I have a list of percentages for us but it is too long to put here. lol.
But it does explain how a lot of us really have a similar look.
Here is another example of something people do not know in their families.
If one of your parents have a full blooded sibling and one that is half, (sharing only one parent the same), you are sharing the same amount of genes with the full blooded aunt or uncle as their half one is.

It will be interesting to find out who is really related to who in this show and if anything was manipulated...
It would really be a trip for Kirk to get blood he thought was a match and finding out it was not a real match after all. That Red had only made him believe it to keep her safe. Kirk is sure he is, and Red is sure he is not....

Colleen · 10/24/2016 10:10 pm

Deadskie #119 The potato chip analogy is brilliant! I get frustrated with Liz's hot/cold relationship with Red, but explaining it in terms of adult vs. kid friendly food really helps. Thank you :-)

Besides single malt Scotch from the Highlands (that both Red and Cooper drink), I will add potato chips to my Thursday night viewing snacks :-)

lara1 · 10/24/2016 11:27 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
lara1 wrote:
OK no way I trust that DNA report. in an SVR file? and how did it get there and why didn't the Kremlin want it released in the first place???
I was also wondering about this, and figured if the Soviet Union is after Kirk, and if they had DNA evidence that proved Liz was his biological daughter--then why on Earth wouldn't they have tried to, at the very least, use her as leverage against Kirk when she showed up at the Embassy? If they want him that bad, I mean, it just seems like they would have at least tried to hash something out. ^-^

Yea, I am not sure what is up with that report. I just think its strange that a DNA test (date unknown) is in there. I mean, firstly, I thought that "Masha Rostov" was rumor and then forgotten about. Then even if the KGB/SVR found out about her and learned (maybe) she was Rostov's daughter, why would they need to include a test to that effect in the file. Its just odd to me. Even if the file is legit, I would not be surprised if that guy or his boss is on Kirk's payroll and the DNA test was added, to further convince Liz and drive a deeper wedge between Liz and Red. And so far it has worked.

Last edited by lara1 (10/25/2016 12:17 am)

lara1 · 10/24/2016 11:31 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
BBB #50 I pick none of the above. My prime suspect is Elise. She's come out of nowhere, pretends to be a ditz, is face timing Aram at work - a huge security no no - and I don't think she was sent by Red, after his remark to Cooper about fixing Aram up with someone. Red would have known if Aram had a girlfriend already, he knows almost everything, but especially about the Post Office people, especially after Anslo Garrick. So my money's on Elise being Kirk's spy.
I'm leaning towards her, too. She's just too good of a fit for the jig to not be up. ^-^ If she's not working for Kirk, I still think she could be a plant of some sort, for perhaps a future Blacklister-yet-to-be. Another "big gun" and such.

deadskie #108 and Honey West (and others). The signs are pointing to Elise for sure. we know nothing about her. Its so obvious though (or maybe the Refugees are just very very good at reading "clues" ! LOL) (Samar: something about her "bugs" me..... really haha) so I'd like for Elise to be on the "wrong side" but the mole to be someone else, or at least for us to find out there are two people working for Kirk - Elise and one person who will be a surprise.

lara1 · 10/24/2016 11:51 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
And I said before that I still think the Artax Network is running because we heard the term "team Leader" again

It would be a long shot, but I was also wondering if Reds family were killed or if they put fake people there and he thought it was them like we saw the Alchemist do.
It was just odd for Diane Fowler to say that knew what happened to his family as if
he didnt know they were probably dead.

But Did anyone else notice that when Red woke Dr.Reifler up in the last episode the first thing the Dr. says is
'I don't understand, Skyler Ayers is doing fine? '
So am I to gather that they already knew each other and Red has something to do with his treatments?
Or did I miss something?

eastcoast #112 -

- I missed that "team leader" reference - do you happen to remember when that was in the episode?
- I have thought the same about what happened to Red's family and the parallels to the Alchemist with the dead family on the floor of the house, with the altered DNA while the blacklister kidnapped his real family. Especially since that episode occurred only a couple of episodes before the one with the "blood, everywhere" story from Red. Like maybe they were leading up to that in some way. I'm not convinced it was Naomi and Jennifer, though. I still don't know what to make of them - whether they were a real family, Red's real family or just a cover family. We've never really had any clues about that, I don't think.
- I didn't really understand why the doctor said that, either. But I forgot what Red said to him when he first kidnapped him at the end of ep. 4. If Brimley was torturing him to give Kirk's location, why did he ask about Skyler? maybe I missed something too.....

liked reading your post.

Last edited by lara1 (10/25/2016 12:19 am)

lara1 · 10/24/2016 11:55 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
David wrote:
'DNA: I am not a scientist, but here's my amateur take: Alexander Kirk is not Liz' father. Instead, Alexander Kirk's deceased brother (shot by Liz) is the father. This could still tie Liz to Alexander Kirk's DNA. Alexander Kirk and his (possible) brother are Decembrists, and were involved in the attempt to take over Russia in the fall of the Soviet Union. They both have had hemophilia (which ran in the Romanov czarist family), and Liz's and Agnes' blood transfusions might temporarily help him. If all this speculation proves true, then Red would be telling Liz the truth that neither he nor Alexander Kirk are her father, and that Liz shot her father (the deceased brother).
That's a very interesting thought! Figure we've considered Red to be Lizzy's uncle, but it's also plausible Kirk could be. And, that he's just pulling the father card to add insult to injury; if he can't find Red to kill him, then at the very least, he can seek to discredit Red's relationship with Liz.

I almost feel like Lizzy's father has to be Red at this point in time, though. I mean it wouldn't be unlike the writers to deliberately point us in such a direction, only to pull a fast one. It's just that it'd be a great disappointment if Kirk were her biological father, and it would come out of nowhere if they tossed some unknown third-party into the mix, this late in the game. That being said, your theory could work, though!

deadskie and david: interesting thoughts. Ever since I figured out the other day (after three years, LOL!) that Ahab means "brother of the father", and Red calls himself Ahab, I'm thinking there is a brother somewhere - either the clue is specific or general. So either Red is the brother of the father, or say in David's scenario, its' Kirk's brother. Although I also keep thinking that Red is the "father" but with a twist that will only make sense when we find out what it is. LOL!

Last edited by lara1 (10/25/2016 12:20 am)

lara1 · 10/25/2016 12:04 am

Honey West wrote:
deadskie13 wrote:
He even said as much, to Elizabeth--"What makes you think she's my daughter?"
I believe they were referring to Zoe, weren't they? Liz thought he was looking for Jennifer, but Red knew she was Berlin's daughter, and that's who he was looking for. He let Liz think what she wanted to. As for Naomi, I think she was in on whatever was going on. Whether she was happy about it, I don't think so. At the very least, her husband had been having an affair with the little girl's mother. And she was being asked to keep that secret or maybe even help care for Elizabeth. He definitely deserved that slap.

.

deadskie13 and Honey West: you know, that scene was just layers with meaning. I think it was a double-edged meaning: Red was looking for the girl in the Stewmaker's photo (from what we were shown), which was Zoe; whereas Liz thought Red was looking for Jennifer. So I think that comment by Red "who told you she was my daughter" was really ambiguous when he first said it as we the audience didn't know at that point what the photo represented (and maybe still is ambiguous, LOL!)

deadskie13 #119 - I loved your analogy with the potato chips! yes I can see that. Nice imagery.

Last edited by lara1 (10/25/2016 12:05 am)

lara1 · 10/25/2016 12:13 am

Honey West wrote:
Eastcoast wrote:
Honey west...
You mentioned the Chimera effect. That was weird becasue it is not something that comes up very ofen and
I was explainging this to someone a few weeks ago that never heard of it. We were discussing how people get off things because of DNA evidence and I said what if they had 2 sets of DNa? It does make you wonder??

Great observations on everything, east coast! But I will only say here that I was quite surprised to read that the chimera thing had affected actual police cases already. So it has been documented as an actual issue when it comes to using DNA evidence where the DNA sample was taken from blood.

Honey West and eastcoast - I think that Liz may have her own "chimera effect". I would not be surprised if her DNA was changed and so her real DNA does not show up in blood tests, if that's what was done to get the DNA report (and we don't know what that report was based on, i.e. what kind of testing).

dna and genetic manipulation has occurred so often in the series especially end of season 1 through season 2 - where I think I noted most episodes had some kind of genetic mutation/alteration theme going on whether it be viruses, crops, biological agents, actual DNA- even the ability to erase/replace memories was stated as the result of a genetic mutation. it would therefore not surprise me if there was some kind of twist like that - a change of DNA. But we don't know of course. Just my opinion.

And in thinking about this, I just had another wild thought. Dom said to Red in Artax, something to the effect of Red screwed up, and "we all had to back out of Masha's life" to keep her safe. What if that can be interepreted more literally than it appears? Like, not only did they physically distance themselves and avoid contact, but what if this is pointing to that they did some sort of physical /biological/familial "reversal", ie the DNA change thing. LIke they literally and completely backed out of her life and left no trace. If that's even possible. Interesting to ponder though.

Last edited by lara1 (10/25/2016 12:43 am)

Honey West · 10/25/2016 2:45 am

Eastcoast wrote:
Honey west,
I think genetics is a most interesting subject. I developed interest in that area due to my family.

That is fascinating, eastcoast! I have been interested in genetics since we learned about Mendel in elementary school. I wonder how this will all play out with Liz and Kirk.

Honey West · 10/25/2016 3:01 am

lara1 wrote:
And in thinking about this, I just had another wild thought. Dom said to Red in Artax, something to the effect of Red screwed up, and "we all had to back out of Masha's life" to keep her safe. What if that can be interepreted more literally than it appears? Like, not only did they physically distance themselves and avoid contact, but what if this is pointing to that they did some sort of physical /biological/familial "reversal", ie the DNA change thing. LIke they literally and completely backed out of her life and left no trace. If that's even possible. Interesting to ponder though.

That's a very interesting wild thought, lara1. I like it.

lara1 · 10/25/2016 10:25 am

Eastcoast wrote:
Honey west,
I think genetics is a most interesting subject. I developed interest in that area due to my family.
Some may know this already but a lot of people don't. I am going to use my own family as an example.
I have a family of double genes. My great grandfather and grandmother had a brother and sister who also married each other. When you have 2 brothers marry 2 sisters their children actually share the same amount of genes that a half sibling would. So even though they are cousins they are closer related genetically just like a half brother and sister. So the cousins down the line are actually considered double cousins. I have a list of percentages for us but it is too long to put here. lol.
But it does explain how a lot of us really have a similar look.
Here is another example of something people do not know in their families.
If one of your parents have a full blooded sibling and one that is half, (sharing only one parent the same), you are sharing the same amount of genes with the full blooded aunt or uncle as their half one is.

It will be interesting to find out who is really related to who in this show and if anything was manipulated...
It would really be a trip for Kirk to get blood he thought was a match and finding out it was not a real match after all. That Red had only made him believe it to keep her safe. Kirk is sure he is, and Red is sure he is not....

eastcoast - I read this last night but wanted to read it again this morning when I was less tired. That its really fascinating, I never knew that, thank you for sharing that.

And agree with Honey West, I wonder how that may all play out in the BL. I think we will be really surprised (well I hope so!)

Tabasko · 10/26/2016 4:50 pm

Honey West wrote:
deadskie13 wrote:
He even said as much, to Elizabeth--"What makes you think she's my daughter?"
I believe they were referring to Zoe, weren't they? Liz thought he was looking for Jennifer, but Red knew she was Berlin's daughter, and that's who he was looking for. He let Liz think what she wanted to. As for Naomi, I think she was in on whatever was going on. Whether she was happy about it, I don't think so. At the very least, her husband had been having an affair with the little girl's mother. And she was being asked to keep that secret or maybe even help care for Elizabeth. He definitely deserved that slap.

That is the way it has always read to me. After many viewings and discussions, HW, I am pretty sure you are right on that one.

Honey West · 10/26/2016 5:11 pm

I didn't know you were from Ko-Ri, Tabasko!
Well, when you think about it, one of the earliest theories most of us had when we heard about Katarina Rostova was that she and Red had had an affair at some point in time. That seems to be the official story these days, but so far the only evidence is what Kirk said and what was in Katarina's diary, which came from Kirk's house. Both could be suspect just for that reason. Red hasn't denied it, but at the same time he hasn't expanded on it or even confirmed it. And there was that line from the diary about her being sent to be in the life of The American, and then Raymond says we should just leave or something like that. That just seems an odd way to put it. Gave me the idea that The American and Raymond might be two separate people. I had even thought that The American might be Fitch. Or another person from that circle that we might not yet know about. That's reaching, but I keep going back to how young Reddington would have been at the time, supposedly he would still be out to sea until 1988-89, and unless he was really super-accelerated in his knowledge and skill in intelligence why would they target him in particular? Another thought was that it might not have been so much about Reddington, but who he knew or worked for might have been the real target of the KGB. Maybe Reddington had to take the fall for a superior who had been compromised. Or maybe he was the one that exposed the whole thing and a unique opportunity fell his way. He could use the information and circumstances for either his own benefit or to make a big play that would save the world, in his eyes. After all he has admitted to being an arrogant know-it-all back in the day. But things didn't work out and the decisions that he made led to where everything stands now. I can just hear it now, wait, leave it to me I can fix this and everything will be fine. And Dom says later, nope, you blew it and got everyone killed or taken away, and it's all your fault.

This should probably be in General Discussion, I think.

lara1 · 10/26/2016 5:44 pm

Honey West # 137 - interesting thoughts. My own take on the diary is that the "american" and Red are two separate people. Katarina names Raymond and Constantin but the person she was sent to spy on, she does not. That's how I read it, anyway. If its even real or truth.

I previously thought that Red and Katarina might have had a brief affair, but now I'm not so sure. I do think that he had feelings for her though, as he kept that photo (assuming it is of Katarina and Katarina is Liz's mother!) with him and seems to have regrets. But I also think he knew her well judging by how close and comfortable he was with Dom. Judging by Red's age I'm not sure what to make of it, other than a shared background where he got to know her before he graduated the Academy. Then of course none of the dates ever add up for me, which is why I still have my "Red is not Red but is someone a few years older" theory. LOL!

I still can't help thinking that there is a missing puzzle piece between Kirk, Katarina, Red and Kaplan. Something is not what it seems, 2 Katerinas maybe, Kaplan an alias for Katerina or vice versa. The pieces just don't all add up yet. I also keep going back to Red's comment to Liz about her mother, that he "knew her" as "Katarina Rostova" - one of her many names. That still seems an odd statement to me, though I don't know what to make of it. Why not just say her mother was Katarina Rostova? That's what Kirk is selling...and why did the Russian Embassay spymaster give Liz such a strange look when she said that she was Masha Rostova?

Edited to add last para

Last edited by lara1 (10/26/2016 5:54 pm)

Tabasko · 10/26/2016 5:56 pm

Honey West wrote:
I didn't know you were from Ko-Ri, Tabasko!
.

Interesting, guys! Here is what the script read:

Katarina: "Seeing Masha with Constantin makes me think of my own father.
I wonder what he would say now about the choices I've made.
Look at me-- in love with the man I was sent to seduce and betray.
An American.
Raymond wants me to run, take Masha and disappear with him, but how could I do that to her? She's my entire life.
She's everything."

How it came off to me:

She was finishing a thought.....I fell in love with the American....then referred to him....Raymond.

However.....Red has said the only man KR truly loved was Liz's father. And that she did follow him to America after he ran off with Masha.
And.....she says looking at Constantin and Masha reminds her of her and her father. Which seems to be implying Constantin is Liz's father.
But in the diary, KR is saying she was in love with Raymond.

Some things seem close to the mark and some don't add up.

Last edited by Tabasko (10/26/2016 6:02 pm)

lara1 · 10/26/2016 6:16 pm

interesting Tabs. that all makes sense, too

then just for fun there's my other theory (I have a lot of those, LOL!) that liz is not Masha. Real Masha is somewhere else (or was somewhere else). So real Masha is really Kirk's daughter. But Liz is not Masha, there was a swap at some point. Back to the DNA test. If it was really taken from "masha" then that way it is a match for Kirk. But it's not Liz's DNA. Just another wild theory, LOL.

Or that the diary is a piece of propaganda. or not.