I am constantly torn between "we are thinking way too hard about this" and "we aren't considering this enough".   It makes my head hurt sometimes.  Maybe Red is so much more/different than we've been led to believe up to this point, or maybe this is just a story about a man who was prepared to become the devil and burn the world to the ground to protect his child.   I can't decide! lol

I had never considered until recently that Elise or Emma could be Jennifer (after hearing it mentioned elsewhere), but I think the possibility is intriguing.  As for the bubble girl and ballerina girl memories, I've always assumed they are the same person, just aged differently. 

I also don't fall completely into line with the "Red doesn't lie to Liz" belief, which undoubtedly influences my theories.  Some people hold that firm and believe Red has never lied to Liz in any way because Red said it and the producers have said "red doesn't lie to Liz".  I (being the skeptic) believe that lying is a subjective matter that can be interpreted many different ways. For some, white lies, playing semantics, half-truths, and other forms of manipulation may not be considered lies while I do consider them to be such (we won't talk about how many hours I've spent counseling couples and families and discussing their defintions of lying and how different they can be just within the same family who have always lived together.  Oy).   We are also talking about a man who lives by his own moral code, which I assume also means his own idea of what constitutes a lie.  I.e. Red tells Liz he isn't her father, but DNA test says yes.  I believe it is possible that Red is her father, but told her he isn't her father because he doesn't consider himself to be (he considers Sam, as he told him before he died) and that he says her father died in the fire because he knew that any chance he had of fulfilling that fatherly role for her died that night.  Therefore, Red could say he has never lied to Liz (though I think Liz would see that differently).  God, this man makes my head spin.  I need a .  lol

lara1 wrote:

Hi Brittany, welcome!  You'll see that we have a lot of theories /ideas here that we bat around, one of my particular favorites is the linkage between Red and Christmas.  You'll see some specific theory discussions detailed under "Theories".

My own view is that all theories are still out there and viable, the crazy and good thing about this show is that none can as yet be completely ruled out nor any proved definitively.  We'll just have to keep watching and learning!  As well as discussing them here of course!  LOL

Of late I have come to think more and more about how TBL may be a deception.  I've been thinking about all of the references to magic and its components; and the similarities of some of the TBL themes to those of The Prestige.  Not that TBL is derived from that story but for me it kind of underscores the magic connection.  The essence of magic is that the magician distracts you with something that is "reality" the that you focus on while the trick is done and at the end you think the trick really did something whereas it did not - you only thought it did, it was an illusion.  Just what the deception is with TBL I'm not sure yet, but there is something that is not what it seems, IMO.

Also of late I've been thinking why we were given such blatant references to bubble girl (Elise) and ballerina girl (Emma) in Season 4.  I for one was expecting some sort of reveal - not that I think that Elise is the real bubble girl nor Emma the real ballerina girl (though they might be!) bur just that we'd get some more clues or pieces to those stories.  Maybe we did but we haven't yet recognized those clues for what they were.....

interesting thoughts on Red's "family".  I guess I'm still of the view that it was his primary family because the various episodes in Season 1 - most seem to have some piece that relates back to, and culminates in the episode where Red tells that story to Maddie.  parable of the farmer etc. I wrote about it somewhere during my re-watch last summer. But anything is possible.  The story to Maddie may be true, false or partly true.  My own view is that its comprised of parts of two stories but what do I know!  ha.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as Season 5 gets underway!  

Last edited by Brittany (9/12/2017 5:36 am)

May I just add how much I love the maturity and civility in this group?  As I said in my intro bio, I've been a fan since the beginning but only this summer came to the internet fandom.  I am in one of the Facebook Blacklist groups and the bickering and sniping over theories is disheartening and at times disturbing.  So thank you all for making such a wonderful place to chat and theorize.

Last edited by Brittany (9/12/2017 8:16 am)

lara1 - Deception and diversions are certainly main themes in TBL.  In my rewatch of Season 4 over the past few days, I've been thinking about the reminders of bubble girl with Elise and ballerina girl with Jennifer too. Could the body in the suitcast be the reveal, and we just don't know it?  My initial reaction to the skeleton was that it belonged to a child or young teen.


 

Brittany - we discussed the Emma/Elise clues around the discussions for The Harem episode.  In brief its in the clothes and hair of each of Elise and Emma.  The similarity hit me in the scene where Elise jumps over the sofa when she has the fight with Aram in his apartment.  There was a freeze frame shot of her and her hair looks just like bubble girl and she is wearing a sort of floaty flowery top like the dress bubble girl wore.  Also, remember she flooded Aram's apartment by the washing machine, I think, overflowing with suds?

 And Emma wears a lot of ballet type clothing, in one scene she actually has on a floaty "ballet top" that criss crosses in the front with a tie at the side as I recall, she has her hair up in a bun  or similar for much of the episode (not to mention she looks like ballerina girl).  She's also wearing almost exclusively black and white in the episode (as in the black and white swans in Swan Lake) except for the opening scene where she is wearing red!

At one point, I listed out all of the bubble/ballerina girl clues around Elise/Emma respectively that we'd put togehter here.   I'll see if I can find it.

Last edited by lara1 (9/12/2017 9:58 am)

Lara1, reading your post made me remember what else I forgot to mention that I feel is important.

I wanted to see if in the re-watch ( I finished Season 4)  if Red sees a pic of Janet aka Arams gf.  He does not.

I didn't remember him seeing her before and thought maybe I missed it ( eagle eye lol, funny Lara ) and he is usually shown pics of people they are hunting down or who are involved.
It does make me wonder if she would be someone he would recognize.  She is aware it is Red that Kirk is after, and it is Red that Aram would be hurting with his testimony.
I am going to look at those episode's again that she is in again to see what else I can pick up on.  Actually, I might just bust through the whole thing again! Lol

Tuxie, you had mentioned you wished we had some better pics of those clippings Tom had.  I did get some better shots of the news articles of Tom when he was kidnapped. Not anything real telling, just more inconsistent stuff 🕵️‍♀️ but I will try to get them on here soon. 

I have more but RL is calling me!!!    I will mention it later tonight.

I've been meaning to look at this as well.  I had wondered if he had ever seen her.   That still leaves it open to possibility that it is her.  I'd be okay with it.  But for some reason I have always had Piper Perabo in my head as Jennifer Reddington.  I'm not quite sure why though.  Maybe personality or because she was in Covert Affairs?

Eastcoast wrote:

Lara1, reading your post made me remember what else I forgot to mention that I feel is important.

I wanted to see if in the re-watch ( I finished Season 4) if Red sees a pic of Janet aka Arams gf. He does not.

I didn't remember him seeing her before and thought maybe I missed it ( eagle eye lol, funny Lara ) and he is usually shown pics of people they are hunting down or who are involved.
It does make me wonder if she would be someone he would recognize. She is aware it is Red that Kirk is after, and it is Red that Aram would be hurting with his testimony.
I am going to look at those episode's again that she is in again to see what else I can pick up on. Actually, I might just bust through the whole thing again! Lol

Tuxie, you had mentioned you wished we had some better pics of those clippings Tom had. I did get some better shots of the news articles of Tom when he was kidnapped. Not anything real telling, just more inconsistent stuff 🕵️‍♀️ but I will try to get them on here soon.

I have more but RL is calling me!!! I will mention it later tonight.

  Y'all 2 weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Let's get to the most important question of the season 5 premiere:  What song are Liz and Red dancing to?   I'm going with September by Earth, Wind, and Fire. lol (Ya know, because it's September and that is one of the most overused songs on television)

I'm sure you're right, lara1.  

Has it ever been discussed why Reddington referred to Katarina as a 'traitor to two countries'?   Has there been speculation that she could have either grown up in the United States or possibly had dual citizenship?  I remember when Red was going through the box of Katarina's belongings in the garage at Dom's, her game was in English and the box said "Bronx Zoo" on the side.  We know her father is in the US, but not for how long for why.  

I started to write this as a continuation to the comments on the funny "sneak peek" but it got into theories, so I'll place it here instead....

Just went back to the sneak peek on Aly's website - a lot of comments posted, interesting to read.  One or two have suggested Liz is playing Red.  I must say I have thought that from time to time since the start of the show.  Liz playing not only Red but others as well.  I don't know, though.  I also thought its possible that Red is playing Liz - desperate times call for desperate measures - Having her in his pocket so to speak would be an asset.  Goes back to whether he has really been manipulating her all of this time, for what end, we don't know.  

Then there has been the "30 year old" DNA test results called into question in Season 4 by Red and by Tom, and which ultimately proved to be false.  Although here the test isn't 30 years old, but the sample is.  I wonder if it degrades with time.  Makes me think back to the discussions we had on brothers/and the Chimera effect.  LOL.  the discussions are endless!