The Blacklist Refugees » LIz's memories

Honey West · 10/02/2017 2:57 pm

Brittany, I think we need to watch Bogdan Krilov again, you know, for research. But, I think that's correct, I don't think they knew each other. Kate could have been doing another one of her posing as if she was working for Red things like she did to get Tom to Cuba.
It would have been easy for her because Red didn't exactly go telling everyone not to accept calls from Kate because he'd killed her.

lara1 · 10/02/2017 5:04 pm

It's sometimes hard to know if TBL time is the same as real time. If its meant to be roughly the same as real time, then the Krilov episode, 4.19, had Leonard Caul, 2.19 occurring two years prior. I think maybe Liz found out something in the apartment. She does get angry at Red after that and starts trying to find out information that leads to Andropov and Velov....and the shooting of Connolly. I think maybe her memory was messed with sometime in that time period and maybe inadvertently triggered the memory recall with Connolly.

I went back to the Krilov episode and gathered up the scraps of what we know about him

-Kaplan introduces herself as a friend of a friend
-Red says to Liz that Kaplan knows Krilov because he is the one who changed her memory of the fire:
Liz: This man, is he the one who erased my memory of that night? Red: That’s how Kaplan knows him.
-Dr. Orchard seems to know of Krilov and his work, which means he's not exactly a secret, those who work in the same scientific field have heard of him (though not necessarily of any nefarious activities)
-Krllov says to Liz of the incident two years ago:
Dr Krilov: You were brought to me by a mutual acquaintance of ours who wanted me to take certain memories away from you.
Liz: What memories?
Dr Krilov: Let us say, you had uncovered a certain truth about Raymond Reddington. And he couldn’t have that.
-Kirlov also calls Liz "Princess". The other two people who have called her that, to my recollection are Kirk and Braxton

So Krilov and Kaplan have.a mutual friend
Krilov and Liz have a mutual acquaintance

I don't think that at the time of Leonard Caul, Liz had been outed as yet as Masha Rostova. Kirk only knew about her, it seems, after that happened. So if the memory wipe occurred around the time of Leonard Caul, I don't think it could have been Kirk. I don't get the feeling that it was him in any event.

I really don't think it was Red - he seemed genuinely surprised.

It could have been Kaplan through someone else because Krilov did not even know her. Thinking it through, I'm not even sure he knew her by name, Mr. Kaplan. But if he did, that could have been the "He" referred to as the mutual acquaintance. But Kate seemed to still be very much on Red's side at that time - through her behavior in Leonard Caul - she refused to leave Red and kissed him on the forehead when she did. So if it had been Kaplan, I feel as though the reason would have been to protect Red.

There's a good argument to be made that it was Tom, but would we call him an acquaintance of Liz? An acquaintance is someone you know kind of in passing, and don't know very well. Unless Krilov was being sparse or clever with his words. There's still a part of me that thinks Tom is still on an "assignment" with Liz though everything we hear about him from the producers and writers doesn't seem to support that. But Tom certainly had means and motive.

The wild card in my list is Cooper - he is an acquaintance, maybe more than that but less of a connection than Tom and maybe Liz found out something that Cooper couldn't have her knowing about Red. That's of course if you think Cooper is part of an undercover assignment that Red has or otherwise has something to lose if Liz remembers.

I'm not sure it could have been anyone else except a really wild card - Ressler. Was it a twist that here was Krilov messing around with Ressler's memories when it was he who engaged Krilov two years ago? But I don't think Ressler had motive or means - how could he know about Krilov and what would he want kept from Liz about Reddington. I only add him to this, because I think he's the only other possible acquaintance.

So we have Red, Kaplan, Tom, Kirk, Cooper, Ressler. Or maybe not.

Last edited by lara1 (10/02/2017 5:06 pm)

Honey West · 10/03/2017 12:38 am

Thanks for checking that out, lara1. I suppose it's very possible that the mutual acquaintance is someone we haven't even met yet. At first I thought Krilov meant Red when he said "And he couldn't have that." I suppose it could be someone else who is involved in Red's big secret. But who? I'm not so sure it could be Cooper, otherwise why would he up and run that DNA test? I think it has something to do with the suitcase bones, and whoever else is involved in that.

lara1 · 10/03/2017 10:42 am

HoneyWest - interesting thoughts. Yes I think Cooper is a wild card. If it was him, its for a reason we don't know about yet, so its more speculation than grounded in facts (such as they are in TBL!)

So with this:

So Krilov and Kaplan have.a mutual friend
Krilov and Liz have a mutual acquaintance

I wonder if the friend and the acquaintance are one and the same - a friend of Kaplan's, an acquaintance of Liz. If that's the case, it rules out Kaplan. But the two could be mutually exclusive insofar as the memory wipe is concerned, LOL

Of course an acquaintance of Liz could be almost anybody! haha.

Honey West · 10/03/2017 3:18 pm

lara1, maybe it's Anton Velov?

We still don't know why he gave Liz that information about her mother.

lara1 · 10/03/2017 6:35 pm

HW - hmmm could be. Velov was KGB.

Eastcoast · 10/04/2017 12:33 am

It could be just about anyone, but what about Dembe?
He sent her to the flat. What she found something out and he was worried about it?

lara1 · 10/04/2017 9:28 am

Eastcoast - Dembe is an interesting choice. He could be deemed a friend of a friend of Kaplan's, and an acquaintance of Liz. There was a deleted scene from the episode (though I never know whether to consider deleted scenes or not) where Red chastised Dembe for showing Liz the flat - I think he says to Dembe, - You shouldn't have brought her here." And Dembe's response is that he had to, in order to save Red.

Elsewhere, Dembe has said that while Liz is Red's #1 priority, Red is Dembe's #1 priority, So I could see him possibly arranging a memory wipe. Would he know Krilov, maybe not, but he would probably know, or be able to, find out. Interesting theory!

Last edited by lara1 (10/04/2017 9:29 am)

lara1 · 10/19/2017 11:18 am

I just read an interesting thought on Reddit about the memory manipulation two years ago. I think it makes a lot of sense.

The poster thinks it was Leonard Caul - that Liz found out something in the apartment. Several of us have circled around that same idea while not landing on Caul. I think that it could be Caul:

- timeline makes sense
-he would qualify as an acquaintance
-not a stretch to think Caul would know of Krilov
-linked with/worked for Fitch (who in my opinion was involved in, orchestrated or at least knew a lot about whatever happened to Red way back when and who he was/is and did in fact set up Red with Berlin and Kursk Bombing)
-linked with the Fulcrum
-was deep deep cover CIA

And some parallels with Red (OK full disclosure this does line up with one of my favorite theories, that Red is a manufactured identity and it is deep government undercover and possibly disavowed by gov)

-last known photo was in 1981(FBI had no photo of Red while hunting him except for that one grainy one and weirdly the only photo in Red's file we see)
-Caul is referred to as a "ghost" - and we've had several ghost references in Season 4, including Red calling himself the "ghost" of CHRISTMAS PAST (i.e. what happened at time of fire perhaps)
- when the Task Force ran databases for info on Caul in order to find him, there were NO traces of him in the government databases including his fingerprints (and I remain suspect of the "fingerprints" in Red's file, which were sourced by two different technologies for left and right hands)
-it was Mossad, and interestingly, Samar who provided the Caul link
-the CIA refused to even acknowledge Caul
-parallel with scarring - Caul's two fingers.

So I find Caul an interesting choice.

EDITED to ADD: of course, Leonard Caul - manufacutred identity, real name was Joseph....forget last name LOL I love a mystery!

Last edited by lara1 (10/19/2017 11:25 am)

Tuxie400 · 10/19/2017 1:41 pm

lara1 - I considered Leonard Caul as the mututal acquaintaince, but I'm not sure I ever wrote anything about it. I couldn't figure out what his motive would be.He didn't know Red. Their only link seemed to be Fitch. Unless Red is a deep cover CIA operative, and Liz knowing he was her father might compromise the mission, I can't think of why he would intercede.

10/19/2017 3:53 pm

For me, Caul would only make sense if Red is actually deep cover government operative (which I definitely think could be possible) and that something she discovered in his apartment would have blown his cover. We don't actually know what Liz may have learned about Red that required someone to intervene with her memory. My suspicions have been 1) the information that Red is her father, 2) that KR is actually alive and Red knows, or 3) that Red is deep cover government operative. It varies based on who I think may have facilitated the process. I've tended to lean towards Tom and reason #1 as him wanting to get her away from Red and that life. Something about his response when she told him that Red was her father in 5x01 still bothers me. It was a little "are you f-ing kidding me?" along with fear, like maybe he thought he'd taken care of that for good and now it was back when he least expected/wanted it.

lara1 · 10/19/2017 5:59 pm

oh yes, absolutely agree that Caul only fits into a "your government" type scenario. If Liz found out that Red was undercover or something that would lead her to conclude that. Its one theory I think is possible but just one of several. I'm intrigued by this possibility, LOL

Brittany - I also think Tom is a likely suspect but for reasons we don't know about yet. I also picked up something in his response to Liz but my take was more that Tom knows that Red is not her father and that's one of the things that Tom now thinks Red is lying to Liz about. One of several possible reasons.

Tuxie400 · 2/24/2018 11:55 pm

Welcome muleiei!

Eastcoast · 2/25/2018 1:30 am

Hello muleieie, welcome aboard!

Eastcoast · 2/25/2018 2:02 am

I had a thought when I was thinking about Caul and doing a re-watch at the end of S2.

Caul was a careful man. I could see him doing this or Mr. Kaplan through Tom if she thought Liz found anything out back then.

I have said before that I think he's her dad but had a different name before and it was changed.

When she looked in the camera and said, hello Mr. Kershaw. What IF that was his real name and He uses it once in a while as an alias? I really laughed and thought it would be funny if it was right there all this time?

lara1 · 2/25/2018 12:53 pm

EAstcoast - interesting comment about Kershaw. I picked up something else on that name a few episodes ago, I think. At least I think it was thet name. One of Red's aliases was used again, maybe for another character, I can't remember exactly. But I did comment on it at the time. At least, I think it was Kershaw. The name he had for the flat and the name he signed in the guest book in the men's gym/sauana place.
I think it cropped up again more recently. AND it starts with a "K". uh oh. You know what that might point to.

Last edited by lara1 (2/25/2018 12:54 pm)

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2018 1:09 pm

Kenneth Rathers is the alias Red has used in the most episodes - 3. It's the one he used with Berlin's daughter and while he was on the run with Liz in Season 3. Those initials are KR, the same as Katarina Rostova. Just sayin'.

Eastcoast · 2/25/2018 2:36 pm

Have we had any other reference to Caul since his appearance?

lara1 · 2/25/2018 3:01 pm

Thank you Tuxie400! LOL I can't remember my own posts....and yes, another K, KR even......I'' have to search for my comment later.....

lara1 · 2/25/2018 4:53 pm

ok - back to KERSHAW and where I saw it, it had to do with Damascus knives, actually, it was in Ep 5.11

this is an extract from what I wrote in the episode discussion, I think my comment was #149. Which may or may not link back to my linking Red with Garvey as resembling each other also.

I noted in the attached linked article that one of the current top producers of high quality Damascus knives is Kershaw. Kershaw is one of Red's aliases - and I believe the name he used for the Red flat. And how Liz realizes that the guy who would not talk to Tom (in the men's room I think, maybe in a men's sauna?), back in Season 2 when she was trying to find out info on her mother, that Red had gotten to him (the guy) first.

So it may be the case that this dagger somehow has Red's prints all over it (figuratively speaking, ie there is a connection back to Red somehow, or it leads Liz to Red's involvement, ie the suitcase)