The Blacklist Refugees » LIz's memories

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 9:51 am

After the Dr. Krilove episode last week, 4.19, many people have been trying to figure out exactly when Liz's memories were tampered with two years ago. Some say it was just before she shot Connolly, some say after, some talk about the Marvin Gerard episode where she beats up the man in the restaurant and then points the gun at Red and she has to be talked down. Interesting that somewhere around Leonard Caul, the end of season 2 is when Tom asks Liz if Red is her father. Then he tells her everything he knows about Red but we as an audience are not privy to that information.

I just watched the original Manchurian Candidate again. Wow, what a brilliant movie! But grim. Anyway, I noticed a lot of the things Lara talks about: chess games/checkered floor, playing solitaire or cards, trigger memory, replacement memories.

I wondered if anyone had thoughts about when and why her memories were tapered with again? Do you think it was to suppress or change memories or so she would remember everything about the night of the fire? "I remember everything"

Honey West · 5/09/2017 10:26 am

I think that the things she "remembers" now about fire night were reinforced to make her believe that her father is dead, in order to makes Red's "lie" about that fact into the truth for Liz. I think she discovered the truth but then it had to be quickly "erased" for her own protection. It could even be that she and Cooper had it done. I don't think Red did it the second time, for some reason, but I could be wrong. But I think it was done to protect her. She seems just a little too sure about her father being dead these days and I think her telling Red that she knows that her father is dead because he told her that fact was a clue. Or else she's playing along. But I am thinking that Krilov points to her really believing that, for now anyway.

P.s. I caught the end of Manchurian Candidate last night, too!

Last edited by Honey West (5/09/2017 10:27 am)

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 10:51 am

Thanks Honey West! I also wonder if you think there's something that 'triggers' her, like Raymond Shaw and the Queen of Diamonds.

The reason why I ask is because I wonder if all this memory manipulation is so that Liz will do something in the grande finale (whenever the show ends) which will reveal the 'truth'? will she be triggered to kill red? Will she be triggered to reveal the Cabal? etc.

In other words, I find it interesting that they are refocusing on memories, not just Liz's but Kate's and then lack of memory in Red when he is 'poisoned'. So perhaps memories or the distortion of memories are key to the whole show?

lara1 · 5/09/2017 11:02 am

Thanks Tatiana for starting this thread. Wouldn't it be a wild twist if in the end we find out that Red's own memories were manipulated, and whatever he feels "guilty" for and what has driven him all of these years, turns out to be a lie? They have already shown that in a way, with Kirk. Not that his memories had been manipulated, but he lived most of his life being driven by something that wasn't even true. I think that's a really viable possibility.

EDITED TO ADD: "Everything about me is a lie" was that our biggest clue so far int he series?

Last edited by lara1 (5/09/2017 11:03 am)

lara1 · 5/09/2017 11:06 am

Oh yes, the same with Berlin. Driven by a "truth" that had been fabricated. Not only did Red not kill his daughter, but his daughter never in fact died. A total lie perpetrated on him, which defined his entire existence and ran his obsession. Like Kirk.

And how many times have we been shown that Red is likewise "obsessed". Like Berlin. Like Kirk. and....like Kaplan? That's why I keep thinking that there is some truth out there that is driving Kaplan's actions, that is not a truth at all.....

I guess we'll find out soon, about Kaplan at least.

Honey West · 5/09/2017 2:40 pm

I think whoever takes Kaplan out, if that's what happens to her, will be the one who wants to prevent the truth from being revealed. Not for revenge, but to silence her.

Honey West · 5/09/2017 2:54 pm

Well, Tatiana, I have wondered if it is Red who is her real target and he knows it. But because she is also his daughter he can't just eliminate her. So he has tried what he could to "fix" her and undo the trigger. Maybe he doesn't even know what it is exactly so he's tried to erase it. He really does want her to have that normal life with the house and white picket fence. Meanwhile he needs to keep her close to watch her, not just for her safety, but for his own. She's probably a ticking time bomb. We still don't know when it was that he tried to change her memories and I think the timing is a vital piece of the big puzzle. Maybe it was when she was 14 and so that's why she said 14 in the Pilot. I don't think they make mistakes like that in the writing. I think that 14 is there for a reason. And maybe that lines up closer to the date where he appears to,have hired Kaplan as his cleaner. I'm sure he always knew all about Kate and her relationship to,Katarina and Liz. In fact I still,think he's the one who sent Kate to,the house in the first place. Maybe she didn't know it, but he did. After all, Red would never have let Liz out of his sight, even when he couldn't be there, much like Katarina said Kate would be like a mother to her when she couldn't be there, even though she wasn't supposed to,love her. I thought that was a very odd conversation at the time, and still do. So,it has to be some sort of clue.

Oh well, back to work!

Honey West · 5/09/2017 2:56 pm

And, Tatiana, I wish that could figure out just what her trigger is. It's not as obvious as the queen of diamonds, but it has got to be something! I suppose it could even be a scent.

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 4:20 pm

Honey West wrote:
Well, Tatiana, I have wondered if it is Red who is her real target and he knows it. But because she is also his daughter he can't just eliminate her. So he has tried what he could to "fix" her and undo the trigger. Maybe he doesn't even know what it is exactly so he's tried to erase it. He really does want her to have that normal life with the house and white picket fence. Meanwhile he needs to keep her close to watch her, not just for her safety, but for his own. She's probably a ticking time bomb. We still don't know when it was that he tried to change her memories and I think the timing is a vital piece of the big puzzle. Maybe it was when she was 14 and so that's why she said 14 in the Pilot. I don't think they make mistakes like that in the writing. I think that 14 is there for a reason. And maybe that lines up closer to the date where he appears to,have hired Kaplan as his cleaner. I'm sure he always knew all about Kate and her relationship to,Katarina and Liz. In fact I still,think he's the one who sent Kate to,the house in the first place. Maybe she didn't know it, but he did. After all, Red would never have let Liz out of his sight, even when he couldn't be there, much like Katarina said Kate would be like a mother to her when she couldn't be there, even though she wasn't supposed to,love her. I thought that was a very odd conversation at the time, and still do. So,it has to be some sort of clue.

Oh well, back to work!

I most certainly thought that comment about 'you are not to love her' was very odd. What does that even mean? How can you prohibit someone from loving another?

I read an interesting theory on The Blacklist Declassified from someone who speculated that Red, Katarina, AND Liz's father were there the night of the fire and that Red and Katarina were working together. In this theory, the father was in possession of the Fulcrum. Red used Liz as bait to try and get the Fulcrum back from the father ... her it is from Declassified:

@Auriandra – Why do I think Red shot the Mother accidentally? Red and the Mother were both on the same side. Red wasn’t there to rescue the Father. When Red enters the room, the comments infers he is holding Masha/Lizzie as a hostage and threatening to take her unless the Father reveals the location of the fulcrum. While the Mother is directing the agents who are searching the house for it, the Father is protesting to Red it’s not there.

Liz (as either Father or Masha) yells loudly to Red “Let me go. Get away from me.”

The Father protests, “You’re not taking her!” (being Masha/Lizzie).

The Mother asks, “Are you crazy?” demanding “Stop!” and most likely orders Masha, “Get away! Right now!”, while the Father mutters “…double…” (could be double agent or cross).

As Masha screams, the Mother shouts “Raym…let go ah!” (gasping as a shot is heard). If the Mother and Red were on the same side, I don’t think Red intended to kill the Mother. Red had only intended to scare the Father into revealing the whereabouts of the fulcrum. When the Mother intervened to free her daughter, she was shot. However if Red was on the Father’s side, he may have intended to kill the Mother.

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 4:21 pm

I really think that Fire Night is the lynch pin for the whole story, motivations, sides, secrets, etc. It's still interesting to explore!

lara1 · 5/09/2017 6:27 pm

There are so many theories on fire night, I sometimes get confused trying to keep them all straight!
One of mine is that the two people struggling were not Liz's father and mother (that never made sense to me) but her father and another man. That's what she saw in the fire memories in Braxton, though the faces were not clear. And if (that's if) the woman in the hallway who stops Liz (in the memory) from entering the room where the fight is happening, is Katerina (we don't know), then I don't think she could have been the person struggling with the gun in the window.

And I think her memory was changed so that it appeared to be a man and woman struggling. So that even if she remembered, what she remembered still would not be "real".

lara1 · 5/09/2017 6:34 pm

On the memory tampering two years ago, one thing that occurs to me is that the Longevity Initiative occurs right before Leonard Caul. And Red's interest was that he wanted the science - he wanted to know whether the doctor's research (that turned out to be bogus) could be used to restore someone's memory. We don't know whether he wanted to restore Liz's memory, of keep anyone else from restoring it.

From what they have shown us so far in the series, there hasn't been the possibility of recalling memories or technically "erasing" memories - but replacing memories - (which I suppose has the same effect as "erasing" them. That conversation that Red has with the doctor in Longevity I think underscores that - there doesn't exist the ability to "restore" memories.

So it would appear that memories can't really be restored if it was replaced, you could only restore the replaced memory. that is, even if someone "restored" your memories (like in Luther Braxton), that memory would not be real, it would simply be the implanted memory.

I'm only stating all of this because as we think how, when and who may have tampered with Liz's memory two years ago, I believe we need to think who would have replaced an existing memory, and if so, with what?
My chief suspicion is that the memory of what really happened with the gun in front of the window was changed. But that's just my theory. When Liz said to Red in Connolly that she remembered "everything" she did not. She only thought she did.

But that still begs the question of how she would have found out what "really" happened that night, who knew and who would gain by blocking it (i.e. replacing it with a different memory).

maybe we will get some more clues on Thursday.
EDITED to ADD: I also believe that Red was surprised/relieved when Liz told him the "everything" that she remembered in Connolly. Which would line up with him not being the person who tampered with her memory two years ago.

Just food for thought.

Last edited by lara1 (5/09/2017 6:39 pm)

lara1 · 5/09/2017 9:21 pm

I finally had a chance to rewatch ep.20. So I have a further thought about the memory.

When Ressler is set up and knocked out, he's hearing everything in kind of echoes. the action seems to be in slow motion, and they then cut to him being in the chair and the doctor working on him. The first time I saw the episode, I thought it was just the effect of him being rendered unconscious. But what if it also related to the memory procedure?

One thing that always struck me as odd in Liz's memory in Connolly of shooting her father was that the fight scene was not clear - the action was a bit fragmented, sort of like in a slight slow motion, and the sound was - echo-ey (if that is even a word!). Which made me wonder if it was planted because even when Liz 'remembered" it, it still was not clear and kind of hazy, the voices echoing, not entirely clear, the action slowed, etc. Fast forward to Ressler hearing voices in echoes and things in slow motion and then being worked on by the doctor.

It may mean nothing, the Ressler thing could just be dramatic effect. But it is interesting that the effect does tie back to the effect of the memory Liz "recalls" in Connolly; and its Liz that then speaks to Ressler about the memory planting. And I still think Red seemed a bit surprised and relieved by what Liz said she remembered in Connolly. And he really only acknowledged the reason that he had her memories changed, not the memory itself that she recounted to him. IMO of course.

anyway - more food for thought! never a shortage of that, LOL!!

Honey West · 5/09/2017 9:40 pm

kiss-my-freckle on alyblacklist has some interesting ideas as to when Liz's memories could have been tampered with two years ago. They were reasoning that it could have happened about the time Liz went to Tom's boat, and had some good ideas for that being the time. I think they were pointing to the Andropov chase as being a planted memory as Liz didn't seem to have her cuts from the glass the morning after on the boat. But I also wonder if that might have been because more time passed than just one night between the car chase and her waking up on the boat. But for sure I think all we can say is that it happened sometime between "Luther Braxton 2" and "Tom Connolly". Although I think it was more like between Ruslan Denisov and Leonard Caul.

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 9:46 pm

lara1 wrote:
I finally had a chance to rewatch ep.20. So I have a further thought about the memory.

When Ressler is set up and knocked out, he's hearing everything in kind of echoes. the action seems to be in slow motion, and they then cut to him being in the chair and the doctor working on him. The first time I saw the episode, I thought it was just the effect of him being rendered unconscious. But what if it also related to the memory procedure?

One thing that always struck me as odd in Liz's memory in Connolly of shooting her father was that the fight scene was not clear - the action was a bit fragmented, sort of like in a slight slow motion, and the sound was - echo-ey (if that is even a word!). Which made me wonder if it was planted because even when Liz 'remembered" it, it still was not clear and kind of hazy, the voices echoing, not entirely clear, the action slowed, etc. Fast forward to Ressler hearing voices in echoes and things in slow motion and then being worked on by the doctor.

It may mean nothing, the Ressler thing could just be dramatic effect. But it is interesting that the effect does tie back to the effect of the memory Liz "recalls" in Connolly; and its Liz that then speaks to Ressler about the memory planting. And I still think Red seemed a bit surprised and relieved by what Liz said she remembered in Connolly. And he really only acknowledged the reason that he had her memories changed, not the memory itself that she recounted to him. IMO of course.

anyway - more food for thought! never a shortage of that, LOL!!

Oh I totally think you're correct, I had the same impression/take away.

Tatiana · 5/09/2017 9:48 pm

Honey West - I'll have to look at that! Thanks!!!

lara1 · 5/09/2017 10:35 pm

Thanks Honey West, that is interesting. I think its genius how this show can have the entire fandom coming up with tons of different theories from one comment! LOL, I love it.

You know when I saw the boat scene I too got the impression that it was more than one day, because of the shirt. As I recall it wasn't what either of them was wearing when they got to the boat. I just assumed it was another shirt Liz had been throwing on while she was on the boat. But the comment about the shoulder has really got me thinking!!!

Interesting thought that the memory thing could have been prior to L. Caul. I wonder if Longevity Initiative would have any clues - I commented about it above, but I do think that nonetheless that episode is full of "memory" clues.

Although I do have to smile because - I doubt the writers thought in Season 2 that they would have a scene in Season 4 where the memory doctor comes back and says he tampered with Liz's memories two years ago. However, they could very well have written in a "memory swap" as part of the overall plot, to be disclosed in some manner at a later date. They have certainly done that with other stuff.

Last edited by lara1 (5/09/2017 10:37 pm)

10/02/2017 8:01 am

I've been trying to figure out the alleged second memory modification that occurred two years ago. I used to think it was Kaplan who did it, but now I tend to lean towards Tom. I think at some point between after Leonard Caul that Liz learned Red was her father. Tom, who was desperate for both of them to get away from Red, decided to take drastic measures. Red has already told him that he won't be allowed to marry her again. Liz has seen that the Cabal is far more widespread that she could ever imagine and that she can't walk away. She also is pretty hesitant to marry Tom. I've wondered if the attack in Gregory Devry was a set up for the memory modification. But I also haven't ruled out that it could have happened after Liz found out she was pregnant. Perhaps Tom thought if he wiped her memory of the Red DNA test, implanted negativity towards Red, and altered her thoughts enough that she would want to keep the baby that there wouldn't be much problem getting her away from Red? It would also explain Tom's behavior when she tells him the news that Red is her father in 5x01. There is fear there in his expression, but also a little bit of 'are you freaking kidding me?' Like he thought that thing was done and over with because Red had made it clear he wasn't going to tell her the truth?

Honey West · 10/02/2017 10:11 am

Very good points, Brittany. I hadn't thought that maybe Tom was involved in the second memory manipulation, but he makes sense. Especially if he was maybe working with Kate to have it done. I'm sure Kate knew all about Krilov. I wonder if she/Liz found out about Red a lot earlier than we think. There was always that odd diner scene when she pointed her gun at Red and went into that sort of dazed, trance-state as he talked her down. Her shooting-Tom Connolly zone. I think the real question about two years ago is who did it? I'm starting to think it wasn't Red, but Kate, who was behind it. If she was working with Tom, that would make the most sense. He'd have the motivation and Kate would have the means.

10/02/2017 11:14 am

Good point, Honey West. I didn't think about them potentially working together, but that would make sense. Kate makes the connection to Krilov, Tom does the meet and the details for the memory plant? I haven't gone back to watch Bogdan Krilov lately, but is it correct that he doesn't seem to know Kate directly? As though she may have known of him but never actually interacted with him?