The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist is part of a Chess Game Red is Playing

Tatiana · 3/15/2017 10:25 pm

Lara - ooooohhh, that's interesting. You know, tonight I was thinking about Red. What is he known for doing?

He makes people disappear. They just disappear. Where do they go? They go some place quite different than where they are; How do they fit in to their new world? do they need to get plastic surgery?

So this new chess approach is very interesting.....

Colleen · 3/15/2017 10:33 pm

Tuxie400 please know we are here if you need anything, both Blacklist or otherwise.

Colleen · 3/15/2017 10:39 pm

One of Lewis Carroll's photographs was titled "St. George and the Dragon." It depicts children reenacting the famous dragon slaying scene.

lara1 · 3/15/2017 10:55 pm

Colleen wrote:
One of Lewis Carroll's photographs was titled "St. George and the Dragon." It depicts children reenacting the famous dragon slaying scene.

Hi Colleen, yes! and I also read that the chess set used/depicted in the book was called the St. George chess set. Though I haven't got round to finding out yet what that means....ie what is a St. George chess set, LOL

Last edited by lara1 (3/15/2017 10:55 pm)

Colleen · 3/15/2017 11:05 pm

I should wait until tomorrow to properly compose this, but it's just too weird...

Lewis Carroll was a mathematician, a logician, a creator of puzzles and math/word games. He also created ciphers (think Leonard Caul's ciphertext).

In the pilot episode, the FBI's file on Red contains an article about the Zodiac Killer (a real life serial killer who was never caught). I never noticed it, but someone on another site did - I need to search to find who because it was a great catch. Anyway, Zodiac taunted the police and media by sending them coded letters that no one could decipher.

Near the end of the pilot is the song "State of the Art (AEIOU)" by Jim James. I actually bought the CD about a month ago, otherwise may not have made this connection... Lewis Carroll created something called the Key Vowel Cipher that hinges on, you guessed it, AEIOU. I read this article about Carroll's ciphers, and there are the vowels running down the left side of a grid of letters, plain as day. I actually caught my breath. It can't be a coincidence.

And in Disney's animated Alice in Wonderland, the Caterpillar song contains the lyrics AEIOU. I don't think Carroll's original Caterpillar song contains AEIOU, though.

So in the pilot, were we already being told TBL was going to be a riddle or cipher for us to solve? Including the Zodiac clue is a bit foreboding...

Last edited by Colleen (3/15/2017 11:07 pm)

lara1 · 3/15/2017 11:22 pm

Colleen - #85

That is interesting about the Zodiac Killer article being in Red' file. Why is the question.

The other thing in his file, along the same theme, that has never been explained, was a letter or report (can't recall which), naming a real life woman, who in the sixties was murdered or who was accused of murder (sorry I know that's a big difference, but its been a while since I thought about it and I just can't remember which it was!). i believe the report/letter was about one of her blood samples and fingerprints. I don't have my notes with me, so I can't recall the name. But I remember thinking what...when I first saw it and I don't think anyone has an explanation.

The letter/report is visible in the scene (at the end of Season 1 I believe) when Liz is going through Red's file in her office, and suddenly she starts to piece together that the blacklisters are all connected. Its what gets her thinking, then making phone calls etc., ending in that scene where she is on the floor of her apartment with all of the files and pages from Tom's code book spread out in front of her.

That always puzzled me and the Zodiac killer thing is strange, too. What is the connection to Red? and what clues (if any)are those to Reds former life, or for those who believe he is not really "Red", his former identity.

Last edited by lara1 (3/15/2017 11:28 pm)

lara1 · 3/15/2017 11:39 pm

Colleen #85 - my curiosity got the better of me and I did a quick search on the Zodiac Killer. And I came across the name Cheri Jo Bates, a coed who was murdered in 1966. I think, if I am not mistaken, that is the name that the letter in Red's file references. It was thought that she was a victim of the Zodiac Killer, but that was never confirmed and her murder remains unsolved.

I have to double check to confirm that't the name - if so that is a connection straight back to that article in the file in the pilot. And interesting that's its a report on a victim who has never been confirmed...as though it was still under investigation for some reason associated with Red's file.....

Edited to Add: Yes, it was Cheri Jo Bates. And it was episode 1.21

Last edited by lara1 (3/15/2017 11:43 pm)

Honey West · 3/15/2017 11:49 pm

I'd forgotten that Zodiac Killer thing. When I was a kid we were terrified of the Zodiac Killer. He was like the bogeyman, only worse. He operated in my neck of the woods, so it was not unrealistic for us to have this fear. Top that off with the Manson Family murders happening about the same time (We had gone on a camping trip and I remember my dad bringing a gun along "just in case"), and then the Chowchilla kidnapping in 1976 where these guys kidnapped a whole school bus full of kids and buried it and them in a quarry holding them for ransom. California was kind of a messed up place in the late 60's, early 70's!
One thing though, Red was far too young to have been the Zodiac.

Honey West · 3/16/2017 12:28 am

To be fair to Tuxie400, I have to admit that I have a theory/idea about the real relationship between Red and Liz that I have never posted. It's kind of dark, and I could see why the network execs would steer clear of it. However I can also see how it might be made more palatable and could be used. I kind of hope they don't go that particular route, but oh, it would be such a tragic story. It ties together a few questions that I have that have never been answered or even asked, based solely on events and scenes in the episodes. No "made up" speculation. Just another way of viewing things, that once you've thought about it, never quite goes away. So far nothing they have shown us has shot it completely down, so only time will tell. i am hoping that the Kaplan origin story will answer some of my questions as far as it goes.

My main reason for not presenting this particular idea is because we are a light and fun discussion board and I hope we can stay that way as long as possible. And no matter how they turn the plot. Because the story is about two main things: love and forgiveness. The past is the past. Whatever happened cannot be undone, but maybe it can be forgiven. And it really doesn't matter whether Red is Liz's father or not. It comes down to basically that when, and not just "if" because I think it's "when", Liz finds out what really happened she will have to decide whether or not Red can be forgiven and she is the only one who has the power to do that. He sees her as his "way home", as the one who can "give him a second chance". And that can only happen if she can forgive him. So when Liz "died", Red was totally devastated. Because with her gone he could never be forgiven and he would be truly lost. It was much more than simply losing her. He would lose "everything". And that's why he had to kill Kate. Because Kate knows what happened and she took away his one chance. Red is beyond redemption, I think, but maybe he is not beyond being forgiven by the person he has hurt the most. Red's blacklist is not just a bunch of people and groups that need to be eliminated or neutralized in order to protect Liz, although that's a big part of it, it's Red's way to try to hide or destroy the past, since he can't change it. He made his choice(s) years ago, and there's no going back, so he continuously tries to "fix" it as best he can. That's a theme, Red fixing things for various people, but it represents his attempts to fix whatever he did in the past. Wiping Liz's memories was also an attempt to "fix" what happened with her, not just remove the memory of Fire Night and shooting her father. And looking at that, I sort of think that the memory of shooting her father was either implanted or enhanced to make her believe he was dead.

Like Tuxie400, I will just bide my time to see how the rest of the season plays out. If they go in that direction then maybe I will get into it. Because then it would be a real topic! LOL! Plus, just because it's dark, doesn't mean it wouldn't make a terrific story!

Tatiana · 3/16/2017 9:42 am

Honey West wrote:
Great post, Colleen! And good reminders as to who we are and why we are here, . One thing we forget is that this is a story that does eventually have an ending. Getting there is at the mercy of the network, the ratings, the length of time they have to use or to fill until it gets there. They've given us a nice puzzle to play with in the meantime.
So is Red a chess master or is he an imposter? Probably both, and neither. Never forget what he told us (and Liz) from the beginning. "I'm a liar." And "Everything about me is a lie." So was he lying when he said he was a liar?

Honey West - so how do you see this conundrum? I am a liar. Everything about me is a lie. I never lie to you Lizzie.

my brain hurts.... have you solved the chicken and egg puzzle? Inquiring minds want to know

Colleen · 3/16/2017 9:58 am

There are so many threads to follow with TBL, its hard to decide which one to pick up and examine. Last night was the Zodiac Killer and cyphers. Right now is the Mad Hatter

When referring to Alice in Wonderland and TBL, I wonder if Red is more like the Mad Hatter. Both wearing HATS is the first obvious similarity, but is probably a coincidence unless James Spader knew beforehand about the Alice Wonderland parallel. Spader is a fan of hats and having Red wear hats was his own idea.

The Mad Hatter is, well, mad. The name comes from hat makers who slowly went INSANE from mercury POISONING (Red slowly being poisoned is a nice parallel). We’ve discussed before the instances when Red appeared to be slowly going crazy or acting more erratically (campfire songs, anyone?).

The other neat parallels are that the Mad Hatter was sentenced to death in Alice in Wonderland. He sang for the queen, apparently quite badly, so she sentenced him to death for murdering the TIME (basically he wasted her time). Death was supposed to be via DECAPITATION, but he escaped. This resulted in time stopping so that the Mad Hatter and March Hare were forever stuck at 18:00 (6pm). In Alice Through the Looking Glass, the Mad Hatter had legal trouble again. He was going to be punished for a CRIME HE DIDN’T COMMIT or for a crime before he committed it.

The last potential parallel is that the Mad Hatter worked for the White King as one of his messengers. He wasn’t his own boss. Wonder if that means Red is or was working for someone else (as a deep cover for the Navy, perhaps).

I am so loving these new emogies

Honey West · 3/16/2017 10:22 am

Well, Tatiana, I don't know. But I think that is probably something we won't see answered any time soon. I haven't solved the mystery at all! But it maybe shed some light on some whys that I had.
Now with that idea that I mentioned, I certainly don't think anything perverted was going on between them.This isn't Game of Thrones! But something bad did happen and Red either looked the other way or was put in a position of not being able to prevent it or somehow had to go along with it. And if he truly has anti-American feelings these days, it would be why. But a choice was made by him that he couldn't undo, sort of like shooting Kate.
It leaves plenty of room for most theories, too, and even some characters who said they know who he really is may only have known part of it. And besides, like most ideas, it doesn't totally cover everything. We still have too many puzzle pieces missing for that! But the main thing, I think, is still that Red needs for Liz to forgive him for something. And as time goes on, and she becomes a little more accepting of him, it makes it harder for him to tell her what it is, so maybe that is why he will never be forgiven, and that would be another choice that he has made or will have to make. He's okay with the current status of his relationship with Liz and Agnes, he's not keeping her locked away or being too pushy. But I think that's going to change again and new circumstances will force him into a choice about telling her or not. Maybe Kate is the catalyst.

But in reality the "dark past" is nothing worse than something we might run into on SVU or any of the heavier crime dramas, but how it's handled might be different here since it's not exactly in a law and order situation.

Tatiana · 3/16/2017 11:14 am

Colleen - Red, the Mad Hatter and I loved your post peppered with emojis

Honey West - I think it's clear Red has done monstrous things (you're a monster); just what those things are are left to our imagination at this point.
".This isn't Game of Thrones! " - very glad to hear!

Does your theory have anything to do with puzzling? I'm sure we all have our suspicions. I've been down a few roads that were pretty revolting, but I realized one other piece of the puzzle didn't fit, so back to the drawing board!

Honey West · 3/16/2017 3:23 pm

That's really great, Colleen, and I am glad you like the new emojis. Excellent use of them, too, I might add!

Tatiana, I really havent tested it against everything yet, so I don't know if it even plays out in the long run. But I was curious about what did Kirk really mean with the line about Unlike you, I would never hurt my own daughter. Clearly he did not mean Liz. Who then? There has to be another daughter was all I can think of. And Kirk knew about her. How? And did he also hurt Liz at some point? To where he had to rearrange her memories so she wouldn't remember.? I just think it's more than the fire and shooting.

Anyway, I am going to start a new General thread, because I'm getting too far away from chess. plus I can flag the thread as being maybe not such a comfy one. The more I consider the dark plot, the more I can see where they probably could do it. At first I sort of shocked myself, but it's not that bad.

Tatiana · 3/16/2017 3:36 pm

Honey West - I'm going to send you a private message.

Colleen · 3/16/2017 4:54 pm

Tatiana and Honey West - we may have similar theories. One of my darkest adds mk-ultra research into the mix, where Red actually ends up being beyond evil. Or best case scenario he initially was involved with bad stuff, but upon discovering just how evil it was, tried to do the right thing and has been attempting to make amends ever since. Either way, it doesn't make for light-hearted reading.

Last edited by Colleen (3/16/2017 4:55 pm)

lara1 · 3/16/2017 5:10 pm

Colleen #91 - I loved your post on the Mad Hatter! I had connected Red to that as well, with the mercury poisoning angle. But I'd forgotten about, or with others, never realized - the other parallels! really interesting!

lara1 · 3/16/2017 5:24 pm

Honey West #89 - couple of thoughts.

I think there are a couple of directions the series can take in terms of what route they could go, if they wanted to take the dark route. And I do think Red has done something terrible in the past, and I think that was what the "some things can never be forgiven" arc was about in Season 3. And I do think that one reason Red doesn't tell Liz what he should tell her is that he is afraid of her reaction -whatever it was. And I have thought for a long time, that the more he gets to know her, the more difficult this becomes for both of them, rather than the other way around.

I also think that Liz's memories were tampered with for more than one reason. Red frequently will give one answer or reason for something that has multiple reasons or answers - hence not the full story, which is also what we don't have. I think Liz's memories were altered so that she would forget either something else she witnessed, or something that may have happened to her (such as how she got the scar).

I've started to think this more and more, along with the "father" theory, especially since Cape May. I had gone back and forth on the father question, but since Cape May I've come down firmly on the sceptical side. IMO, I don't think there's anything in that episode that points remotely to Red being Liz's father. That just brings me full circle though - if Red was so torn up with Liz's "death" how could he be so dramatically affected by it if he was not her father. For me the answer is, because she represents somehow - his way back home, and with Liz's "death", that was lost, along with any chance of forgiveness. I wrote this when I rewatched in the summer, and since, I've just come to think it even more.

And I also agree that was partly why Red was so angry with Kaplan - that by taking Liz away, she had taken away this chance of his to go back home, to the way things were before whatever happened.

And I really liked your take on the blacklisters - erasing and covering up parts of the past as part of it. Makes a lot of sense.

Last edited by lara1 (3/16/2017 5:28 pm)

Tatiana · 3/16/2017 5:46 pm

Lara - by its very nature, the scar her father left on her arm is a pretty darn weird thing for a loving father to do to his daughter. And pray tell, why would touching it make her feel unafraid? You'd have to have a red-hot searing poker. Any parent who does such a thing would be in jail for the rest of their lives. The fact that it evokes calm in her means she was psychologically conditioned to have that response.

Colleen · 3/16/2017 5:55 pm

Thanks for the kind words Lara1, Tatiana, and Honey West

Every time a new theory or theme is mentioned here I want to rewatch TBL from the beginning. Sooner or later the DVDs are going to wear out

Tatiana #99 Holy Cow that's genius and has huge implications