The Blacklist Refugees » Who is trying to take down Red?

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 2:11 pm

Tatiana - I had been researching Elise/Kate Lord/Janet/Jennifer for about a week. Friday was first day I had time to put it all together. I'm still finding more stuff today.

Honey West · 3/04/2017 2:13 pm

Kate Lord. Hmmmmmmm.
Good find on the poster, Tuxie400.

Tatiana · 3/04/2017 2:30 pm

I don't know where to put this, but did anyone else catch this:

Elise: Do you really think that the Feds are gonna let a prodigy like me rot in a jail cell?
[ Elise removes her glasses and pulls out a device ]
Aram: Is that a remote code cypher? Are you trying to steal proprietary ideas?
Elise: Why do you think that I’m here? I had three agencies fighting a cage match to cut a deal with me before your girlfriend even finished reading me my rights.
Aram: She is not my girlfriend.
Elise: Oh, you’re pathetic

------------------------------
Ressler: You gotta be kidding me. All right.
Samar: She cut a deal?
Ressler: Full immunity. Cooper just sent over the plea agreement. She’s now an asset for the NSA.
Samar: You said Aram is the plan. What did you mean by that?
Elise: He won a contest. It was an audition to hack a tranche of softwares. I couldn’t crack it.
Ressler: A software for what?
Elise: A control panel, for some sort of facility. You know, center systems, RFID tracking, security doors.
Samar: Do you know where?
Elise: The Architect– he made them launch a cyber attack on a power grid in Southern Virginia.
Ressler: Where in Southern Virginia?
Elise: I don’t know. Look around though. This– This guy kills people. Once he gets what he needs from Aram, he’s gonna kill him, too.

So if Elise is a prodigy, then that makes Aram a super prodigy because she couldn't hack the sw. But was it because she couldn't or because she wouldn't?

And just as an aside, the whole "prodigy" thing reminds me of the description of Reddington in the Pilot as almost being prodigy like on his path to leadership in the military ranks.

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 3:32 pm

Tatiana - Yes, Elise is a techie prodigy, and Aram is a super techie prodigy. Now she's an asset for the NSA, or at least that's what she says. I'm wondering if she and The Thrushes weren't always working for the NSA, with National Security Advisor Laurel Hitchin giving out some of the assignments. Could Jennifer have been found in witness protection and recruited by the NSA at a very young age, especially if she was a prodigy?

Honey West · 3/04/2017 3:49 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Tatiana - Yes, Elise is a techie prodigy, and Aram is a super techie prodigy. Now she's an asset for the NSA, or at least that's what she says. I'm wondering if she and The Thrushes weren't always working for the NSA, with National Security Advisor Laurel Hitchin giving out some of the assignments. Could Jennifer have been found in witness protection and recruited by the NSA at a very young age, especially if she was a prodigy?

That goes along with my idea that it's not just Liz that is "special", it's also Reddington. And it would stand to reason that any and all of his children would likely be "special" for whatever reason, that we don't quite know yet. Maybe they have decided to make Aram a "special" person, too. It would be an interesting character development considering he wasn't even supposed to be a major character in the beginning. Or was he? LOL!

Tatiana · 3/04/2017 4:02 pm

Honey West -
Yes, that's what I was thinking as well. I mean a prodigy isn't just someone who's above average. There's something really 'special' about a prodigy. And it does mesh with the whole, 'I think you're very special' 'Reddington as a fast track to leadership' etc. thing. If there's anything to the Elise/Janet/Jennifer thing, then this is very telling. Put prodigy together with Elise/Janet and link her to Red and there's a definite theme going on.

It could just be a theme of exceptionalism though. Or nothing at all. But it could be a clue, subtle as it may be.

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 4:37 pm

Honey West - Good point that Diane Fowler may have been talking about other member of Red's family, rather than wife and daughter.

lara1 · 3/04/2017 7:26 pm

I re-watched Mako Tanida today and I made some more connections I hadn’t made before. And I think the overall story arc may parallel or be a mirror image to, Red’s story. And I think somehow, in some way, the parallels or mirror images in the story of Mako Tanida are playing out in the current story arc. And a huge thank you to Tuxie400, whose excellent post above with the dancing parallels etc (#17 ) got me thinking of other Mako Tanida parallels in the current story.

Consider this dialog near the end of the episode. I’d picked up the basic themes (fake death/identity) before but only on this re-watch did I really notice the words I put in bold. This is after Red tells Liz that Tanida’s brother is dead, so the identity of his “brother” is someone else who is running Tanida’s criminal enterprises in his absence (in prison):

Liz: “Reddington says Aiko Tanida's dead... Died the same night his brother was apprehended by Ressler's task force.”
Meera: “No, we have documented proof he escaped, evidence from...
“Liz: “Then it was falsified. We need to review what happened that night. Think about it... no one's seen or heard from the guy in four years. Our last known photograph is older than that. Aiko Tanida's not hiding. He's dead. We need to review the case files. Someone else is running Tanida's business. “

Similarities to the FBI’s story of Red. Does this point to what some of us have theorized, that the story of Red abandoning his family was falsified by a government agency. Then, something happened after the four years when no one saw him - so did the real Reddington die and did Red emerge to take his place four years later? Running an enterprise that he (the fake Red, our Red) had already been running under his real name prior to his disappearance? Or did one or the other die, and the other take his place?

When the episode opens, the FBI agent confronted by Tanida has his family threatened to be slaughtered unless the agent commits ritual suicide. He does so and bleeds out on the snow - it is winter. Then the second FBI agent is found under the bridge, again bleeding out on the snow. Does this mirror Red’s (or original Red’s) situation, in a mirror image - i.e. Red himself was not touched but his family was killed or taken?

Another interesting thing was that Tanida and his brother were said by Tanida to be “collateral damage” in the FBI’s hunt for Reddington. Was Reddington’s family “collateral damage” in a different situation. Or, getting back to our current “whodunnit”, is there someone else out there whose family was collateral damage also from the hunt for Reddington and is now out for revenge. Could be either scenario….

Some other interesting stuff in the episode that may be related:

Ressler says to Red that he will burn the world down looking for Tanida if Red doesn’t tell him where to find Tanida, echoing Red’s words to Liz in Frederick Barnes (in which he also blows up the Takoma Park house, and where we first see bubble girl):

Ressler: “Tanida's close. I can burn the whole neighborhood down, or you can tell me where he is. “
Red: “ Donald, I understand how you feel. Beneath the iron-and-rust exterior beats the heart of a man swimming in immeasurable grief. I am truly sorry about Audrey. There are few that understand love and loss more than I.
Resssler: “Well, I'm glad you understand. Where is he? “
Red: “Let me tell you something that someone much wiser than I told me at a similar point in my life. Go home. Turn back from this and go home.”

And Red continues on to say that he didn’t follow this advice, although it was the profoundly harder route.

And this snippet of dialogue between Ressler and Janeka, when Ressler has the gun on him and threatens to shoot him:

Resssler: “No, you brought this down on us... on Pete and on Sam. “

Some more minor stuff:
Ellie (derivative of Elizabeth) is the alias used by Jolene.
Tom kills Jolene by suffocating her.
More to come.....

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 7:32 pm)

lara1 · 3/04/2017 7:37 pm

More thoughts on Mako Tanida and our current whodunnit:

Interestingly, when Jolene and Tom are arguing by Tom’s wall of clues, he says to her:

“Yeah? Well, Berlin doesn't have a damn clue. Do you have any idea how many candidates there were? They chose me. I've done everything they asked. I married the woman, for God's sake. I've made her think my entire world revolves around her. And now it's been two years, and I've heard nothing.”

So - who are “they”? Was Berlin just the tip of the iceberg, the immediate face of a larger group of people? But Berlin who spearheaded the assault on Red because it was very personal re what Berlin blamed Red for re Berlin’s daughter.

So are “they” still out there? Or is there perhaps someone else out there with a different, very personal agenda, blaming Red - maybe for something he did not do? Or a group supporting this person, as maybe a group was supporting Berlin - and is it the same or a different group? All possibilities! And I still think it could be Elise as Jennifer, maybe with a group supporting her.

One additional note on Elise - we are focusing on her hacking skills. But she’s obviously had spy or other operative training the way she took down ARam. OK, maybe not a difficult target but she knew what she was doing. Same as in “The Architect”.

And another link between Elise and Mako Tanida:

In The Architect, there is a scene where Elise is talking with Aram, and there is a kind of light/halo coming over her shoulder, and its white and very blue. you can see the still photo if you google elise and Blacklist

At the very very end of Mako Tanida, when Red is watching the ballet, and the ballerina shifts back from the girl to the woman in present day, that strong blue light (actually from the theater spotlight) is shown on Red. The similarities are amazing.

So I think Emma somehow represents ballerina girl, and Elise bubble girl, but there is also some symbolism around Elise relating to the ballet performance (the name of the school, the spotlight etc)

Christine also wasn't comfortable with Red showing up in person at the theatre....I wonder where it was and why she was very aloof with him.....

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 7:41 pm)

lara1 · 3/04/2017 7:44 pm

Tuxie400 #28 - I think the dancing references are somehow linking this arc back to Mako Tanida. How exactly I'm not sure yet. See my posts 48 and 49. Interested in your thoughts - and anyone else's!

lara1 · 3/04/2017 7:49 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:

There's really no way to tell what color the tiny ballerina's eyes are in Mako Tanida. Her eyes in every screencap are always somewhat in shadow. Were bubble girl and ballerina girl the same child? That's what I always wondered.

Tuxie400 - I remember either viewing this on a very large TV screen or getting a picture of this and enlarging it and brightening it and seeing that the dancer has blue eyes (or blue/green eyes). I kept the picture but its on a laptop not with me right now. I'll see if I can send that photo when I get back. At least I think that's how I got stuck on the pale blond hair/blue eyes thing LOL. I could always be wrong though. I will try to get that picture.

And thanks for adding the Kate Lord poster pic! I didn't know how to do that and its more effective when you actually see the photo I think. great that you were able to share with us!

wow the plot is getting very complex, LOL!!!

Edited to add: I still wonder whether they are supposed to be the same girl. My gut instinct says no, but then I can't really explain it. But, if Emma and Elise are meant to represent each of the two girls, maybe they are not the same person. then again, if the writers threw all of those collective clues together into one present day person it would have been too obvious. LOL. so basically, I don't know!! ha ha.

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 7:51 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 8:58 pm

lara1 wrote:
I re-watched Mako Tanida today and I made some more connections I hadn’t made before. And I think the overall story arc may parallel or be a mirror image to, Red’s story. And I think somehow, in some way, the parallels or mirror images in the story of Mako Tanida are playing out in the current story arc.

I remember when Mako Tanida first aired, I thought it had a lot of parallels to Red's story, and it had me seriously thinking about the imposter theory for a long time. The fact Tensei hadn't been seen for four years jumped out, as did someone taking over a criminal empire. The similarities in dialog between Red's burning down the world line and Ressler's on burning down the neighborhood were mirrors too. I hadn't thought about the snow even being a parallel though.

I think you're right! The dance references, along with many other little touches this season, are leading us back to the Mako Tanida episode. The severed head starts us off in Esteban, and it was a callback to Tanida's head in the box.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/04/2017 11:48 pm)

lara1 · 3/04/2017 9:02 pm

Tuxie400 #52 - great observation on the head in Esteban. Yes! right from the very start, parallels have been drawn. I do want to go back and see if I can find more bubble girl clues - although I can no longer access the key episode for that! LOL

the photo of Elise/Janet with the blue light halo effect like when Red is sitting in the ballet theatre at the very end of Mako Tanida is a bit difficult to find, so here it is embedded in an article:

http://www.spoilersguide.com/the-blacklist/season-4-spoilers-aram-s-hacker-girlfriend-returns/

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 9:04 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 9:18 pm

lara1 #49 - Good catch on the pronoun "they" with Tom. Berlin might not have been working alone, and whoever was with him on taking Red down that time may be part of a group working toward his end now.

I looked at the Elise photo with the blue light, and I do see what you mean about the similiarities with Red watching the ballet and being bathed in the blue stage lights.

I also agree that Elise has a full tool chest of spy skills. She appeared to be a mirror image for honey trap and master spy Katarina in those fall episodes. And don't forget that as Kate Lord she was able to pass herself off as an engineer in a nuclear plant. Later we find out, she met Aram in the gym when she asked to borrow his cell phone. This girl's got as much superspy power as Sydney Bristow in Alias, and she's highly likeable - like Red.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/04/2017 11:49 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 9:25 pm

lara1 #51 - About the tiny ballerina's eyes, she spins around so quickly in that segment, it's hard to see her eye color. I tried pausing at certain points but never got a good look on my large screen. Then I looked at screencaps on multiple sites and couldn't tell. Could it be you got ahold of a photo someone online had photoshopped to make the eyes look bluer? And then there's the fact, the child actresses eye color doesn't always match the adult actress. One of those little Lizzies has hazel eyes instead of Megan Boone's blue eyes. I can't remember if it's the one in Luther Braxton or Tom Connolly.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/04/2017 9:28 pm)

lara1 · 3/04/2017 10:51 pm

Tuxie400 #55. I am trying to remember how I got that info, LOL! I know that I had researched the three actresses who played bubble girl, ballerina girl and Berlin's daughter. The last two are not credited so I remember doing a lot of online research and following up and then I think I got some names and searched on the actress names. maybe that's where its from. LOL, I need to check when I am back home.

interestingly, the girl who plays young Liz looks like bubble girl in one of her photos, her hair is lighter and curled....LOL

so young Liz and bubble girl have blue eyes. I'm pretty sure ballerina girl did too. they are all more like blue/green (color of the ocean, anyone?!!).

So then Elise has brown eyes yet most of her symbols point to bubble girl, who has blue eyes. Unless in the series Elise is meant to be in "disguise" by wearing brown contacts.

then again, if both Emma and Elise are representation/clues/symbols it may not matter if the eye color isn't an exact match.

LOL. even the simple stuff gets complicated!!!

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 10:52 pm)

lara1 · 3/04/2017 10:58 pm

So now I am thinking more about Elise/aka Kate Lord/ aka Janet.

Someone earlier today mentioned whether Kate might be a reference to Katerina. So then I thought of this.

Elise has a lot of symbols that point to her as a representation of bubble girl.

She has a few symbols that link her to the ballet, not necessarily the ballerina - the school of ballet and the spotlight at the theatre.

So, does this make sense:

Kate Lord/Katerina
Elise "alias"/Elise le Blanc

Maybe this is pointing to Katerina as dancer, we've had a few references to that. And did she in fact own or run the ballet school? Its a long shot but I'll throw it out there.

And then is there a connection between Katerina and bubble girl or is bubble girl Liz? I have never thought of bubble girl as Liz and now that we have seen several photos of her that Kirk had, seen the summer palace memory, the swing photo etc, I still don't think they are one and the same.

But what if bubble girl is another daughter of Katerina? The "other" Liz or "other" Masha? That's the only thing I can come up with so far pointing to the mixed symbols with Elise aka Kate Lord.

any thoughts? I think if we think through any more clues/symbols we have seen in this season, maybe it will start to become clearer......some day! LOL

Tatiana · 3/04/2017 10:59 pm

The severed head starts us off in Esteban, and it was a callback to Tanida's head in the box.

Ah yes! The head.

I really do keep thinking Ressler is somehow under some directive to keep an eye on Reddington, but not to kill him. Somehow Red and Ressler are inextricably linked.

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 12:06 am

lara1 - I never thought bubble girl was Liz. Number one, because of the blonde hair. And number two, bubble girl in the home movie was missing her top front teeth. Most kids don't lose those until they're at least 5 or 6 years old. The only reason one might think bubble girl is Liz is because the movie is shot in such a way that you can't identify the mother. It's similar to the swing photo in that way. Thanks for the info on the ballerina's blue eyes.

By the way, going over the Frederick Barnes script, I noticed the patient who survived Frederick's testing was named Elisa.

Tatiana - Your take on Ressler is interesting. I think it's more likely Red had a mole on the FBI team that was hunting him, I think our boyscout was very determined to arrest him.

.

Honey West · 3/05/2017 12:43 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 #49 - Good catch on the pronoun "they" with Tom. Berlin might not have been working alone, and whoever was with him on taking Red down that time may be part of a group working toward his end now.

I looked at the Elise photo with the blue light, and I do see what you mean about the similiarities with Red watching the ballet and being bathed in the blue stage lights.

I also agree that Elise has a full tool chest of spy skills. She appeared to be a mirror image for honey trap and master spy Katarina in those fall episodes. And don't forget that as Kate Lord she was able to pass herself off as an engineer in a nuclear plant. Later we find out, she met Aram in the gym when she asked to borrow his cell phone. This girl's got as much superspy power as Sydney Bristow in Alias, and she's highly likeable - like Red.

Reminds of when Fitch said that Berlin had chewed through his leash. I figured that at some point Berlin was working for the Cabal.