The Blacklist Refugees

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5/30/2017 12:44 pm  #441


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

About the suitcase, Red said "suitcase", not "bones", so if Kaplan dug up the bones and put them in a suitcase, how would Red know that? The only thing I can think of is that the suitcase was wrapped up and Kaplan just took the wrapping off and wrote Elizabeth's address on the tag which might have been blank previously.
 

 

5/30/2017 1:42 pm  #442


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana - It sounds like you are firmly in the imposter camp right now. Is that new for you, or have you always leaned that way? I'm just curious. What puts you there at this point?  I've never been more firmly in the original Raymond Reddington camp.than now, although I still think there's an outside chance Red could be Katarina. Particularly since Daniel Cerone didn't address the big 4th season discrepancy:Kate said in Mato that Raymond had placed Liz in her arms as a baby girl and asked her to keep Liz safe.. But in Requiem it was Katarina who placed Masha in her arms and ask her to protect the child.  I find it very curious Cerone didn't say anything about that one - not even an "will be explained in the series."

You're right, I never was anything but Red is Red. But I'm not convinced he is Liz's father. Which means the man who was captured by Seaduke 30 years ago is her father. It has more to do with "everything about me is a lie" than any thing else. And when Kirk says, "You remember what she was", not who Katarina was. If this is the case, he could have gathered a lot of intel on her, the what, rather than real interaction, which would be the who.

What were your arguments for and against, Tuxie and what changed your mind?


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/30/2017 2:35 pm  #443


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

hi all, just dropping by to say I'm happy to add my list of who calls Red what.  I'll do that later today.  I just have to dig out my notes!  

 

5/30/2017 3:18 pm  #444


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

1994

Just to briefly add to #432, 1994 is really adding up.  When reviewing my notes on the Red "names", I came across a note I made that when Fitch comes to see Red, he says its been 20 years since they last met.  That would make it 1994 as the visit should have been in 2014.

I wonder if there was some sort of pact for others to back out of Red's life in 1994 (whoever he is).  The classified docs appear, Red goes off the radar, last meeting with Fitch, last meeting with Naomi/Carla, Liz is pronounced in greater danger.  Hmmm

Last edited by lara1 (5/30/2017 3:24 pm)

 

5/30/2017 3:49 pm  #445


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I'd like to know what exactly his agreement was with Fitch. We figured it was to keep the Cabal off of him because he had the Fulcrum, but I suspect that might only have been part of it. There must be more. Probably the entire overall scheme by which he became Raymond Reddington, the concierge of crime. After all, he had already been blamed for it before he became it.


“I am exactly who I am. And I can assure you, I’m a far more interesting Raymond Reddington than Raymond Reddington ever was."
 

5/30/2017 4:20 pm  #446


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Honey West wrote:

There must be more. Probably the entire overall scheme by which he became Raymond Reddington, the concierge of crime. After all, he had already been blamed for it before he became it.

He even said as much in one of the last episodes this season: I became what they said I was - a criminal.

There's something he's done in the far past that he considers so horrific it cannot be forgiven by himself or by Liz.

And yes, Lara and Honey West, 1994 is an important year. 
Ok, so I need to go back and read the Imposter theories.

Honestly, just when I think I've started down the right path, I find another path that's just as good. It gets so confusing!

 


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/30/2017 4:21 pm  #447


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Maybe Fitch was Naomi's father, making him Reddington's father-in-law.

 

5/30/2017 4:22 pm  #448


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Welcome Desdemona! So glad to have you as part of the group! Whether you've been reading quietly or just found us, we love to have some fun and minimize the negatives. If you haven't already, please do look at our guidelines... And share away!

Thanks for joining :-)


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/30/2017 4:23 pm  #449


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

IowaWatcher wrote:

Maybe Fitch was Naomi's father, making him Reddington's father-in-law.

My brain is acting like a pinball trying to get a hold of that concept!


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/30/2017 6:32 pm  #450


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Some interesting thoughts having reviewed part of my notes from last year.

When Red and Fitch talk as Red tells Fitch about Berlin, Fitch says to him:" let me remind you... You stole some very damaging information about us when you disappeared. "

Nothing new there, but now I'm wondering if that is referring to 1990 or 1994.  And I'm thinking this now because of Red seeking out Kaplan in 1994, because Liz was in greater danger.  Is that the year that he really "stole" the Fulcrum (i.e. said he did) as things got very dicey and he was now in greater danger as well?  And needed extra protection not only for himself, but for Liz?  

Fitch's agreement with Red was around 1993/94 - Fitch doesn't go after Red; Red doesn't go after Fitch.    We know that Fitch set up Red as the Kursk bomber in 1991, but was that because of whatever happened in 1990? The thing that Red messed up, whatever it was? And is the 1994 pact separate, and because of something else?  It could be either, maybe

I'm just trying to figure out the two very different sets of "disappearance".  We now know more about the latter than the former, I think.  (Which is not much, LOL)

Adding to this is that I'm now fairly convinced that "current" Red, whoever he is, is not the man who kidnapped Masha.  Since the Kirk episode, I've been toying with the idea that it was not Red who kidnapped Liz.  I think (and this is just my opinion) that is true whether or not  Red is the real Reddington.  That is what Kirk thought, that Red had kidnapped Masha all of those years ago, but Kirk has been proved wrong on other things.  And supposedly KR lied about the paternity.  Did she lie about who took Masha as well?  Were there two "Americans" - the "American" of the diary and Raymond (Original or current Red, depending on your theory)?  Who knows, that might be what Red said to Kirk at the end, so he let Red live - that he was not the one who kidnapped Masha, who set in place all that Kirk grieved for in his life.

I think the comment from Kate about Red not having kidnapped Liz before made me think all of this more than previously.  Either the "original" Reddington (if Red is not that person) or someone other than Reddington (if "current" Red and "original" Red are one and the same) kidnapped Masha  

So how does this tie into the Fulcrum?  Well, we've discussed here before who the man was with the Fulcrum in the fire memories.  That man "stole" Masha and also had the Fulcrum and was hiding it from the others, who came to the house in search of it on fire night.  The man who put Liz in the closet, the hand of an older man that we could never really reconcile with "current" Red because that man was older.  

So the man who kidnapped Masha, who had the Fulcrum.  I don't think it could have been Red because I don't think he kidnapped Masha, and he did not know where the Fulcrum was.  So it was either "original" Red (if different from current Red) or someone else entirely, if original and current Red are one and the same.  That's where I'm currently at anyway.

The question is, did "current" Red tell the Cabal that he had the Fulcrum after the 1990 or 1994 "disappearance"?  And I wonder whether the answer depends on whether current Red is original Red, or an imposter?  Agh I just gave myself a headache, LOL

Well I'm just kicking around some ideas that began to knit together again when I looked at my notes today.  (Can you believe that I filled up 3 notebooks last summer?  LOL if only I had time to read them again!)

a

 

5/30/2017 6:33 pm  #451


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

IowaWatcher wrote:

Maybe Fitch was Naomi's father, making him Reddington's father-in-law.

Hmm, I do wonder if Fitch and Carla were connected in some way.  that's an interesting idea!
 

 

5/30/2017 6:34 pm  #452


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tatiana and Honey West - should we all now move over "officially" to the hiatus pages?  Or I guess, if the various ideas on different topics evolve, we can open individual theory or discussion pages.....

 

5/30/2017 7:41 pm  #453


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Lara - Yes, I was going to suggest that this afternoon. Thanks for the prod :-D

Do you want me to move your comment over there or can you just post it? I think that's a great jumping board for our next discussion!


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/30/2017 8:41 pm  #454


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

HI Tatiana,

Yes, I can move that comment over.  I'll also move the Liz/Masha/Liz comment over as that one has me thinking a lot also.  Probably later tonight.

See everyone over on the hiatus discussion section!  

 

5/30/2017 9:01 pm  #455


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tatiana wrote:

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana - It sounds like you are firmly in the imposter camp right now. Is that new for you, or have you always leaned that way? I'm just curious. What puts you there at this point?  I've never been more firmly in the original Raymond Reddington camp.than now, although I still think there's an outside chance Red could be Katarina. Particularly since Daniel Cerone didn't address the big 4th season discrepancy:Kate said in Mato that Raymond had placed Liz in her arms as a baby girl and asked her to keep Liz safe.. But in Requiem it was Katarina who placed Masha in her arms and ask her to protect the child.  I find it very curious Cerone didn't say anything about that one - not even an "will be explained in the series."

You're right, I never was anything but Red is Red. But I'm not convinced he is Liz's father. Which means the man who was captured by Seaduke 30 years ago is her father. It has more to do with "everything about me is a lie" than any thing else. And when Kirk says, "You remember what she was", not who Katarina was. If this is the case, he could have gathered a lot of intel on her, the what, rather than real interaction, which would be the who.

What were your arguments for and against, Tuxie and what changed your mind?

I have always felt in my heart of hearts that Red was Liz's parent. I was good with father OR mother LOL. Like deadskie, there are two arrows in Season 4 pointing to Liz being Red's daughter: what he told Kirk in 4.8 and this DNA test where Cooper knows the blood belonged to Raymond Reddington. Other things in Season 4 make me think he is the original Reddington like Red having known Stratos since 1987 and his statement to Dembe about deciding to become the criminal everyone thought he was. Also, there are too many people who knew Raymond Reddington prior to 1990 who have not questioned Red's identity:: Naomi Hyland , Admiral Richard Abrams, Kirk and probably Fitch. I'm not sure if Dom knew Raymond before Katarina's "death" or not, but possibly. Sam never called him by name, so there's no confirmation there one way or the other.

.I just don't think you rearrange your life and build a criminal empire to protect someone who's not your daughter. No amount of guilt would prompt a sane person to do that. And Liz subconsciously always seemed to know and trust Reddington. Remember how she wouldn't hold Kirk's hand in the hospital even when she thought he was her father? Think of Season 1  and how she readily took Red's took every time it was offered.

What I got from Season 4 was that this whole thing is really a simple story about family.
 

 

5/31/2017 12:42 pm  #456


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I agree Tuxie. Whether our Red is her father (or her mother) there has always seemed to be a deep caring there for Liz that I just can't fathom a stranger (or more distant relative) having for her. That old scene back in (season 1?) with the music box. That was really heartwarming and would just seem odd if our Red didn't have a deep personal connection to Lizzie.

On a related note....That was one of my favorite scenes in the whole series! Writers, if by chance you happen to read our comments, I hope we see more scenes like that whenever we eventually get to the final ending between "Red" and Liz. (Assuming it would make sense to the actual ending)

 

5/31/2017 2:41 pm  #457


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

JackPow - I loved the music box scene in the Ivan episode too! While the cuckoo clock scene this season was reminiscent of that one, it didn't have same emotional punch.

 

9/11/2017 9:42 am  #458


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I wasn't sure where else to put this, but since it relates a lot to the season finale, I put it here. 
Here have been my thoughts on the series to this point with revelations from season 4 finale:

1) I've always believed Red was Liz's father and was glad to see it confirmed.  I didn't even know of imposter theory until recently and while I find it interesting, I feel like I've seen too much evidence to the contrary (i.e. people who knew him in the past, prints from the 80s in his file, the fact that he was in intelligence means he was going to have had extensive background completed, etc).  So I'm in the camp of Red is Red and he is Liz's father.  I don't think you make the sacrifices he has, built this sort of empire, and devoted his life to this woman for her to be anything else. 

2) The suitcase.  I'm of two minds on whether I believe it is Katarina or not, but have ideas for both.  If it is Katarina, I believe Red is directly or indirectly responsible for her death.  It could be he tried to smoke her out and she got killed, he killed her directly, or did something that resulted in her killing herself (such as making her think Elizabeth was dead, which is a personal favorite). If it isn't Katarina, I believe it is possible that Red believed it was her and thinks he was responsible for her death.  I think Kaplan could have been either in the dark on it or helped Katarina fake her death with Red in order to live in the world and plot her own revenge on him/keep an eye on her daughter from a distance.   Kaplan's comment about "I'm sorry Katarina" and the K carved into the tree don't make a ton of sense otherwise for me.  So either way, my theory is that Red believes (or knows) Katarina is in the suitcase and that for Liz to find out would be the end of their relationship. 

3) I think Kaplan's source was Dr. Nik and that he reached out to Tom to retrieve the suitcase.  Based on what we've seen promoted in interviews about season 5, it seems like Tom holds on to the suitcase.  I wonder if he and Nik would be trying to analyze the remains to figure out who it is before he takes it to Liz.  I've started to wonder if the address on the luggage tag might be the place where the person was killed or perhaps the house where the fire took place (or it could just be a luggage tag that is supposed to be Liz's address). 

4) I think Liz's struggle with who she is will be a driving factor in season 5. She's drawn to the dark side but also wants to be a good FBI agent.  She mentioned in late season 4 that she needed to help Red on a couple of occasions because she was an agent once again because he got the president to pardon her.  I think she will hold on to that sense of obligation both for herself and Red.  I think Red could tolerate her loosening up a little, but if she goes too far he will try to stop her.  In season 3 it seemed like he was distressed over shooting Connelly and what she had to do while on the run.  He talked about how he didn't want her to be like him.  He got her pardoned so she could be an agent again to avoid turning into him.  I could see this being a source of tension between Red and Liz, Liz and Tom, and Red and Tom. 

5) I feel like a major theme in the show is parallelism in generations of a family and each generation's efforts to keep the cycle from being repeated and that we saw a lot of that in season 4 and will see more in season 5.  The Liz/Tom relationship is a parallel of Red/Katarina and Red has done everything he can short of murdering Tom to keep Liz from going through what he did.  He even told her eventually that he knew she had to realize these things for herself, but still begged her not to marry Tom (and told Tom he wouldn't marry her, which ended up being the case).  Liz's consideration of putting Agnes up for adoption resembled Red's decision to let her stay with Sam.  I believe he has always been conflicted about it, feeling like it was the best thing for her while regretting that he didn't raise her himself, especially with his comment about her believing her life was too dangerous for a child but that his life hadn't been worth much not having a child as part of it.  The Dom/Red relationship seems like a future version of the Red/Tom relationship. I felt like Cape May and the Artax Network showed that.  Red (Liz's father) told Dom to stay out of her life for her protection. Tom does the same to Red, which makes the latter realize what exactly he had done to Dom and what it must have taken to Dom to avoid killing him in order to have his granddaughter in his life.  And finally, Liz's life seems to parallel Red's in terms of having a normal, respectable career that is dragged towards the dark side by an irresistible force.  For Red, that was likely Katarina, and for Liz that is Red and the need to know where she came from. 
 

Last edited by Brittany (9/11/2017 9:43 am)

 

9/11/2017 10:11 am  #459


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I'm in the same camp as you are.  I feel he is her dad. Always trading his life for hers.

Just so you know, We do have a board Hiatus Discussions that we are using for the summer break. 


It's a shame you have no crackers  
 

9/11/2017 12:03 pm  #460


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Thanks!

 

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