Hey Brittany, I've been an on again off again proponent of imposter theory since almost day 1. (I'm not a Lizzington, have just been intrigued by their possible connection since the pilot). I also went back and forth on the "is he her father" question....at one point in Season 3, I changed my mind every few weeks!  LOL.  I'm not a proponent of Rederina though (not yet!), but looking back on the series, I think there is quite a lot that would support it....equally stuff that negates it - much like a lot of stuff in the show.  Such is the clever writing of this series.....

So now we have the father question answered, which is part of the answer....

For me, Red being an imposter would bring an additional level of interest.  Who he is, why did he "take over" Reddington's identity, what is his purpose in coming for Liz....takes on a new dimension.  At times I think he is deep undercover, and/or the identity of "Reddington" is a completely fabricated one to begin with (with this he could in fact still be Liz's father but just not be "Reddington" because Reddington never existed as such).  Another option is that Red is so "lost" in the identity that he now believes himself to be that person....lots of what is the real truth references.

There's references in the series to books and films about made up identities, and people who got totally lost in those identities - i.e. they became the "fake" person.  then we have Red's speech to Ressler in Season 2 about Tom about how he and Tom are alike in that when they take on a "persona" they are all in....to the point of actually "becoming" that "persona".  And then there's the "fake" criminal that Red totally made up, the role that Tom plays in Season 4 to help Red....another reference to a completely fabricated "person".

Its interesting to me that all of the main characters with links to Red have other identities - Kaplan, Carla/Naomi, Liz/Masha, Kirk/Rostov (and it hasn't been explained yet why/how the well known businessman Rostov became Kirk), Howard and Scottie, KR, and probably Dom, though we don't know that.  Everyone but Red.  In a series all about fake deaths and fake/double identities, I find that more than interesting.  And the almost insane amount of focus on mirrors we see in the series.  Then again, we have multiple names referring to the lead characters (Liz, Elise, Beth, etc) but not to Red - which may point to him really being Red after all.

I also think that there are a lot of buried clues in Gregory Devry.  A con man from Red's past who comes back as fake Red -  "Fred".    The imposter of the imposter (my thoughts).  I did a post somewhere about names, and who calls Red by which name, and the fact that "Fred" always calls himself "Ray" which of course real Red never does, and only Fitch ever called him Ray.  so I think there are clues there that maybe we can't fully see...

None of this proves that he is an imposter of course and there is stuff that can be said to refute it.  I'm not trying to preach this theory - and I do think its just a theory and could be out the window with the next episode, LOL - just explaining my point of view, I'm just intrigued by all of the themes in the show and how they may ultimately knit together..  

I totally agree with you that Liz and everyone would feel played - although Red could still be her father yet not be Reddington (if its a fake identity).  I think that whatever it ultimately is, they will hold it until the very end of the series.....LOL.
 

Hi Brittany, not at all.  I am obsessed with this show's theories like no other show I've ever watched.  LOL

Oh yes I forgot to mention, I don't believe the FBI file on Reddington, ever since I discovered (or thought I discovered) that the source of the fingerprints don't appear to match.  I did write about it at the time but as I recall, the technology for each (the left and right hand) appeared to be different (this was in the Keene dossier book).  And yet another address for him - somewhere in Virginia, nowhere near Tacoma Park or the cabin or the flat, for that matter.  LOL.  Maybe his family just owned a lot of real estate!  

Yeah some of the board discussions have turned a bit nasty.   I'm still in it for the fun!  

Tuxie400 - very interesting observations.  Red does perpetrate a lot of cons, when you think about it and the connection to both Sam and DeVry (forgot his real name) is interesting.

I also come back to magic tricks and card games, which you can look at as forms of cons as well - maybe artistry is involved also, but in the end they fool us into believing something that hasn't truly happened.  Scattered throughout the series (including when Cooper goes to the storage locker to retrieve the shirt).

 

Last edited by lara1 (9/24/2017 11:25 pm)

Brittany, 

I have thought he was her father from episode 1. But There have been a few times I have wondered if he is someone else but I always come back to he is Red. I am glad I don't ship anyone, I just roll with the writers!  I agree that it is crazy how the fighting over that starts.  It isn't like they are real people....

I have wondered so much how they all knew each other enough that they would trust Sam.  Actually the fact that Kr and Red both trusted him with their very young child. The fact that she told Kate it was someone they both trusted made me think they, her and Red had discussed it.  We know Red had known him from what he told Liz, but not how she did.
I was thinking  that she might have met him through Red.
That they might have played house while Kirk was away and he was a friend she met. After all, Dom seams to have some sort of relationship with Red but not Kirk.

Or maybe Sam was in the Navy earlier in his life?

Sam had another name too if you remember.  Tom used it when he went to go see him in the hospital.


Well, I have other thought but it's late and I'm  .

I think the biggest struggle for me with the impostor for me has been the chance that he wasn't her father after all.  I could handle the impostor thing much better if he were still her father, just not the original Red.

Tuxie--that's an interesting observation about the use of the long game phrase.  I've never doubted Red had a long-term plan with this.  Not just to get to know Liz and protect her, but that there was someone he was trying to smoke out of hiding.  I'm assuming it is Katarina at this point.  I'm so thankful to be able to ask non-Lizzington shippers about the impostor theory because I feel like I'm getting more logical information about the impostor possibility than just 'he doesn't treat her like she's his daughter'. 

Eastcoast--I too wondered how in the world they knew a grifter in Nebraska.  Granted, Sam likely had to move a lot to keep out of jail,  so he could have been out east at some point.   Red mentions knowing Sam most of his life (and all of Liz's).  I wonder if he and Sam grew up together or met in the Navy.  And Red and Katarina were together for quite a while....Liz was four when she was abducted, so they had likely been together for 5 years at that point (probably closer to 6, as Liz seemed like she was at the later end of 4 years old).  They may have traveled or met up in various places.   I also wondered if Red was brought into the edges of the criminal world by Katarina or if he had already found it on his own.  

I remember that arrogant comment from Cape May. I don't believe he specified his cheating, but talked about how he 'thought there was an order to things" and that if he basically had raised Liz himself that he could keep her safe.  But he failed (the night of the fire) and then left her with Sam to raise and just brought her violence and misery and eventually death when he entered her life as an adult.  I took that to mean he was arrogant when he took her, thinking he would be able to keep her safe from everything and everyone when he wasn't a big enough player for that. 

 

My comment #252 under the Kaplan discussion was about what he said in the theater.  I had felt like it was linked to his discussion when he was turning himself in.
He said she was born into that world. I think he and Kr being spies etc... is what that was from.  And of course whatever else he was in to?

Well, off to do some Rl things! 😉

Regarding Nebraska. Offutt AFB in Nebraska was the hq for the Strategic Air Cmmand during the Cold War.

A long-ago theory of mine held that was why Sam was there. This was if Sam was really also undercover and only posing as a grifter.

Last edited by Honey West (9/25/2017 3:53 pm)

Brittney,  those are all good points and i think they have been brought up before because there are just too many things for me that i cant make fit either. Im not saying it isnt possible,  but there are so many things like the ones you mentioned. And kirk knew his voice on the phone right away.

And i thought i was going to loose my cookies about the 13 years! 🤣   
i ran into some Old friends a few years ago in a store. 
( they knew my name and said they were)  We stood there and talked at least 30 minutes.  They kept saying Wow, it's been over 20 years or more.  I said oh it's probably been more than that I haven't lived here in a long time and I'm just visiting. 
I kept thinking,  would one of you please say the others name.  Whoever they were they had changed a lot!  I still do not know who they are to this day!!!      and there are others...  Lol

Last edited by Eastcoast (9/27/2017 2:39 am)

Brittany #13 - you raise some very good questions!  I can't say that I have all of the answers but I can give you my perspective.  Again, these are my thoughts, I'm not sure how they compare to others who think that there is  an imposter at play.  I am not totally married to the theory but I love playing around with it and think there's more than a good chance it could be true. I just love analyzing the pros and cons of it!

You make a good point about the voice.  I thought of that as well.  Then I started thinking, well Red's voice is not going to sound like the Red of 30 years ago anyway (Spader's doesn't and even mine doesn't (thank goodness re the latter! I used to hate my voice ) LOL).  So maybe its not the voice so much as what is said that makes the characters jump to the conclusion that it is Reddington.  For example, the point about Kirk recognizing Red's voice on the phone is a very good one.  However, in thinking about it, Kirk already knew that Reddington was going after him in an aggressive way.  So when someone calls in the middle of the Kirk/Red battle and says something like, "I have your Senator", I'm not sure its a great leap for Kirk to think/know that its' Red.  I agree though its subject to interpretation.  With some of your other points:

- My conclusion about Kate (which could be way off base!) is that she knew Red was an imposter - it was one of his "secrets".  She knew Red/Raymond from prior to him being an imposter.  I'm not sure she recognized him in the warehouse or wherever they "first" met in 1993 - II feel she hadn't seen him since fire night when they all backed out (he was "away" for example during the event with Annie)  and think she thought he was (original) Reddington.   Then (in my view) Red starts talking about what they have in common. But that's just my take.  I forget things, and there is so much detail to remember about in the series, there may be something to refute that!

-I'm not sure that people knowing Reddington from before 1989 negates the theory.  They may not know he is an imposter.  He doesn't actually conduct meaningful conversations with them, through which they could tell that something is off.  The biggest obstacles to his I think are Stratos (did Red know him before he was "Reddington"; or did he know him as "Reddington and Stratos doesn't know he is an imposter - I think the latter is unlikely).  I haven't figured out Stratos, or Dom, either.  But I do think Dom knows a lot.  That's why Red doesn't have him contact anyone.  Maybe Dom knew "Red" before he was "Reddington".  But again, I agree its a huge question mark.

-Cooper falls into the general pool of people who knew Red prior to 1989.  Either he doesn't know or is in on it (as Fitch may have been - the only person who has called Red "Ray" and interestingly, the name that De Vry refers to himself as when "impersonating" "current" Red. ) I'm not saying I know what that means but I think Ray may have been used intentionally.  Then, maybe not - just a coincidence.  hahah  But I don't think Cooper knows as much as we might think about "original" Red.  He didn't know the Red/Liz parental connection for example.    Cooper is a huge question mark all around for me.

- Carla definitely knew Red prior.  But as what, I don't know.  I think she may have been there on fire night, there's a phrase we hear in the fire memories, something like "you're crazy" which Carla says to him in the cabin.  I think she knows a lot and if he is an imposter, may know that as well.  I think Red definitely does care for her, she suffered because of what he did, she lost her "real" life, and she was loyal - never said anything to anyone about Red and Elizabeth....and in keeping her safe, he also exerts control over her.  He can keep tabs on her.  He knows exactly where she is.  There is something that  Red does not want Carla to talk about.  It could of course be the paternal thing.  But i think its more.  And I always thought she seemed wary of him.  Just my take obviously.  But I think there's more to Carla...like the chicken bone thing, how did she know to do that?  There's certainly stuff that points differently.  I could go on and on about other Carla stuff but I'll stop now!  LOL

-When I first saw the Admiral scene, I thought he did not recognize Red at all at first.  (Well why would he - some stranger just appears on a stairwell out of nowhere, LOL.  Red has a habit of dong that!).  When Red started speaking, he did recognize him.  But was it Red's voice, or what he said?  Interestingly, to me, when the Admiral starts talking back to him, Red only replies "Yes."  Then changes the subject.

- Kirk knew Reddington for sure but not necessarily that Red is not Reddington.  Was that what Red whispered to Kirk?  Something that shook Kikr's existence to the core, like what he had thought all of his life was not true.  But it could have been something else of course.

-The fingerprints actually fueled my theory, LOL.  Why are they from NYPD???  Is this someone else,  with a petty criminal past?  And each set of prints has been taken with different technology which makes no sense.  And a Virginia address far from the Maryland ones....Then again I don't trust the FBI file.  Those fingerprints may be Red's but swapped in for what had been in there.  

Of course if Reddington never existed at all, but was a manufactured  identity, that is one answer to all of it!  LOL  Maybe by the end of this season we will have enough more info to point more in one direction or another.  But in the meantime I have fun with the possibility!  






 

Last edited by lara1 (9/27/2017 11:13 am)

I've wondered on occasion if Kaplan was possibly working for Red without knowing it while she was nanny to Masha, as the writers did say they weren't retconning the comments (and if you aren't considering metaphorical language). He believed that was his child, living with her mother and stepfather.  He may not have had much access to her, so he somehow worked it out to get Kaplan int here and got her to report on the goings on of the household in order to keep up with their life.  Perhaps she believed she was a CIA asset or something, but was in reality just reporting to Red??  

I definitely think that Cooper has more up his sleeve than meets the eye, but I can't figure out what.  I think the idea of Red being a long-term, deep cover operative is a fascinating idea that could have either coincided with taking Masha/Liz from Katarina and the fall out of that or because of it (Red knew he would have to do something and suggested it).  Those things are always possible under impostor theory as well.  

I've seen several people mention that chicken bone thing about Carla and how would she know to do that.  I don't work as a spy or in any sort of law enforcement but I am definitely the person who assesses my situation and determines my means of attack and escape.  My old counseling office had no windows and the office set up meant that if a client became violent, they were between myself and the door.  I had my attack plan and defenses plotted out just in case.  She might be that way (considering who her ex-husband is).  And maybe she watches a lot of true crime. (Spoiler alert: I never had to do anything like that.  I hate to admit that I am torn on how I feel about that fact too, lol).   I think Carla probably knows more than just the paternal thing, but it's hard to say what. 

Dom is another wild card as well.  I can't help but wonder if he was former KGB as well.  And considering Eisendrath did Alias, I have had suspicions of Masha possibly being part of a child training program like they had Project Christmas in Alias.  I could see Red putting his foot down and refusing to allow her to be in that and taking her (Katarina mentions she was taken from the campus, which was an odd term).  I've also wondered if Katarina had taken part in that type of program, thus what she was so good at her job.

As for the fingerprints, they may have been part of a state background check, a gun permit, or maybe a drunken bar fight or something.  But there is the possibility that the FBI file is wrong, like you mentioned.  Especially if he is an undercover operative. 

lara1 wrote:

Brittany #13 - you raise some very good questions!  I can't say that I have all of the answers but I can give you my perspective.  Again, these are my thoughts, I'm not sure how they compare to others who think that there is  an imposter at play.  I am not totally married to the theory but I love playing around with it and think there's more than a good chance it could be true. I just love analyzing the pros and cons of it!

You make a good point about the voice.  I thought of that as well.  Then I started thinking, well Red's voice is not going to sound like the Red of 30 years ago anyway (Spader's doesn't and even mine doesn't (thank goodness re the latter! I used to hate my voice ) LOL).  So maybe its not the voice so much as what is said that makes the characters jump to the conclusion that it is Reddington.  For example, the point about Kirk recognizing Red's voice on the phone is a very good one.  However, in thinking about it, Kirk already knew that Reddington was going after him in an aggressive way.  So when someone calls in the middle of the Kirk/Red battle and says something like, "I have your Senator", I'm not sure its a great leap for Kirk to think/know that its' Red.  I agree though its subject to interpretation.  With some of your other points:

- My conclusion about Kate (which could be way off base!) is that she knew Red was an imposter - it was one of his "secrets".  She knew Red/Raymond from prior to him being an imposter.  I'm not sure she recognized him in the warehouse or wherever they "first" met in 1993 - II feel she hadn't seen him since fire night when they all backed out (he was "away" for example during the event with Annie)  and think she thought he was (original) Reddington.   Then (in my view) Red starts talking about what they have in common. But that's just my take.  I forget things, and there is so much detail to remember about in the series, there may be something to refute that!

-I'm not sure that people knowing Reddington from before 1989 negates the theory.  They may not know he is an imposter.  He doesn't actually conduct meaningful conversations with them, through which they could tell that something is off.  The biggest obstacles to his I think are Stratos (did Red know him before he was "Reddington"; or did he know him as "Reddington and Stratos doesn't know he is an imposter - I think the latter is unlikely).  I haven't figured out Stratos, or Dom, either.  But I do think Dom knows a lot.  That's why Red doesn't have him contact anyone.  Maybe Dom knew "Red" before he was "Reddington".  But again, I agree its a huge question mark.

-Cooper falls into the general pool of people who knew Red prior to 1989.  Either he doesn't know or is in on it (as Fitch may have been - the only person who has called Red "Ray" and interestingly, the name that De Vry refers to himself as when "impersonating" "current" Red. ) I'm not saying I know what that means but I think Ray may have been used intentionally.  Then, maybe not - just a coincidence.  hahah  But I don't think Cooper knows as much as we might think about "original" Red.  He didn't know the Red/Liz parental connection for example.    Cooper is a huge question mark all around for me.

- Carla definitely knew Red prior.  But as what, I don't know.  I think she may have been there on fire night, there's a phrase we hear in the fire memories, something like "you're crazy" which Carla says to him in the cabin.  I think she knows a lot and if he is an imposter, may know that as well.  I think Red definitely does care for her, she suffered because of what he did, she lost her "real" life, and she was loyal - never said anything to anyone about Red and Elizabeth....and in keeping her safe, he also exerts control over her.  He can keep tabs on her.  He knows exactly where she is.  There is something that  Red does not want Carla to talk about.  It could of course be the paternal thing.  But i think its more.  And I always thought she seemed wary of him.  Just my take obviously.  But I think there's more to Carla...like the chicken bone thing, how did she know to do that?  There's certainly stuff that points differently.  I could go on and on about other Carla stuff but I'll stop now!  LOL

-When I first saw the Admiral scene, I thought he did not recognize Red at all at first.  (Well why would he - some stranger just appears on a stairwell out of nowhere, LOL.  Red has a habit of dong that!).  When Red started speaking, he did recognize him.  But was it Red's voice, or what he said?  Interestingly, to me, when the Admiral starts talking back to him, Red only replies "Yes."  Then changes the subject.

- Kirk knew Reddington for sure but not necessarily that Red is not Reddington.  Was that what Red whispered to Kirk?  Something that shook Kikr's existence to the core, like what he had thought all of his life was not true.  But it could have been something else of course.

-The fingerprints actually fueled my theory, LOL.  Why are they from NYPD???  Is this someone else,  with a petty criminal past?  And each set of prints has been taken with different technology which makes no sense.  And a Virginia address far from the Maryland ones....Then again I don't trust the FBI file.  Those fingerprints may be Red's but swapped in for what had been in there.  

Of course if Reddington never existed at all, but was a manufactured  identity, that is one answer to all of it!  LOL  Maybe by the end of this season we will have enough more info to point more in one direction or another.  But in the meantime I have fun with the possibility!