The Blacklist Refugees » Summer 2017 Discussion

Tatiana · 5/30/2017 7:57 pm

We've overstayed on the KaplanKaplan discussion page and we've started talking about The Blacklist as a whole, rather than as a specific episode. Let's go ahead and start our general summer discussion here, shall we?

Here's some suggestions as we have a lot of information now:

Did Raymond take over someone else's identity?
What's really in that suitcase?
Was it actually Reddington or someone else who put Elizabeth as a baby into Kate's arms?
What possible scenario could they make so that the above statement is true?
With our current information, what did Carla/Naomi mean when she told Elizabeth "he's not who you think he is"?
Why would Elizabeth never be ready to learn about "what you [Reddington] did to Katarina"..Dembe says?
What was different about Season 4 compared to the previous seasons? What was emphasized more? Did we learn anything new?
We have some new dates emerging that appear to be significant: 1987 (30 years ago, whatever will start in 2017) and 1994 when Fitch and Reddington made an agreement. What is significant about these dates? Where have we seen them referenced in the show?
Do we have any insight into Raymond's life prior to Christmas 1990?
What about Dr. Krilov? Who tampered with Liz's memories "two years ago" (spring 2015) What was going on at that time? Why would her memories need to be tampered with?

Well, as always, we have more questions than answers, and I have to say, I'm pretty sure when the series is all over and done with, we will still have more questions than answers. But I sure hope they fill in the BIG question... wait! they're all BIG questions!

So let the games begin!!!

Tatiana · 5/30/2017 8:20 pm

Wasn't sure where to put this, but because this will change, I decided to put it here.

I asked Alyblacklist the following question and here's her take:

Aly - has TBL ever clarified the timeline with Kate/Katarina/Reddington? I tweeted Cerone but got no answer. Kate says she worked for Red for 30 years, that would go back to 1987 which would be two years before the fire. In Requiem she doesn't meet him until probably 1994. "when you put Elizabeth in my arms as a baby" Red put Elizabeth into Kate's arms when she was a baby. It's possible there's a Masha and an Elizabeth, but we still have a continuity dilemna Your thoughts? Thanks, Aly!

Nope, they haven’t clarified it. That remains one of the big inconsistencies between Mato and Requiem. But you’re right - Kate says she was Red’s “cleaner, keeper & confessor for 30 years.” But according to Aram, Kathryn Nemec went missing 25 years ago in 1991 (which really should be 26 years ago I guess).

And Kirk said that he wanted back the “26 years of being a father” Red took from him. To me, that implies that Red and Kate knew each other from the beginning of Liz’s life - not later as shown in Requiem. (Though if I read your post correctly, are you suggesting that Red put a different baby, Elizabeth, in Kaplan’s arms 30 years ago who is not Masha/current Liz? - I may have misunderstood that). Hopefully all of this will get cleared up eventually! Thanks for the ask!

Honey West · 5/30/2017 11:26 pm

Tatiana wrote:There's something he's done in the far past that he considers so horrific it cannot be forgiven by himself or by Liz.

I still think that he killed Katarina. In Cape May he muses that he doesn't kill Tom because he is Agnes' father and killing her father would be a mortal sin. Killing Liz's mother would rank right up there in the mortal sin department, if you ask me. Or. If you go for the imposter theory, he killed Liz's real father. Same mortal sin issue. And we would be back to him having a very advanced case of Harbormaster's Daughter Syndrome.

Tatiana · 5/30/2017 11:43 pm

Honey West - good point about the 'mortal sin'
He had to make a choice. Between the mother and the child. And we know in Requiem that Katarina is wearing the same clothing as she wore in Cape May while calling from a pay phone on the beach. Was Red part of a group of men coming after Katarina? Or did he make the choice on his own.

The only reason why I've dismissed the suitcase full of bones as Katarina is when Red says to Dembe, "We've gotta find that damned suitcase" If he cared for Katarina at all, would he curse like that?
That's what makes me think it's someone else's. But of course, it makes the most sense that it is Katarina.

And that would be the unforgiveable act. If he is Liz's father, then killing Katarina to protect Liz would be unforgiveable.

Ok, I need to start doing some detective work, roll up the sleeves!

I think what Tuxie said on the Kaplan Kaplan board was something I've heard one of the showrunners say, "It's just a simple story about a family"

lara1 · 5/30/2017 11:44 pm

Just one or two things copied over from the finale page to add to the mix....

Tatiana wrote:
"If I judge by what we've seen on-screen and not what showrunners have said, I would think that Liz's real dad was shot the night of the fire and those are his bones in the suitcase. I would also think that katarina and raymond/spader worked together. After the father was killed in the fire, rayond/spader assumed his identity. I still wonder if Katarina/Raymond were siblings or just worked together in espionage.
Everything about me is a lie, I'm a criminal, criminals are notorious liars. *sigh*
Has anyone gone back to earlier episodes where raymond/spader meets up with people he knew before 1990, his disappearance? There's Fitch, someone from the navy, Karla /Naomi, Cooper (did he actually work with him where he would have seen him?).Who else?"

Well that's partly where I am at. Over the summer when I re-watch, I am going to focus on the words - what is said, exactly. Its interesting, I was thinking of what Richard the Admiral said, what Naomi said, and what Dom said. all about how Red made some kind of colossal blunder, that caused collateral damage:

- the Admiral's career was ruined, as he could not shake the association with Reddingon;
- Naomi's life was ruined, as was that of her daughter and (for a reason that has not been expressly explained), they had to go into witness protection;
- Dom said they all had to back out of Masha's life, and he could have spent the last 30 years being her grandfather
-in Kate's memory, there are no details about Red's behavior around the time of the fire. Only that KR had to back out of Masha's life. There is no discussion about Red doing something at that time. Yet, when Kate met Red in Amarillo, she states that his actions were treasonous. in 1994. Curious.

The "official" FBI story has nothing gone awry, no "incident" in 1990 - just that Red never came back to his family, he disappeared. I think its clear yet he was seen periodically I think between 1991 and 1992. And Naomi last saw him in 1994, per her statements to Berlin. It was in 1994, I believe, when the classified docs showed up. And when Naomi last saw him. And when he approached Kaplan about working for him because Liz was now in greater danger. And when Red went officially off the radar. So are Richard, Naomi and Dom all talking about the same event? most likely yes, but I don't know for sure.

EDITED to Add: Dom's 30 years would pre-date the fire. So we have 1986, 1989-90 and 1994 as working dates.

1994

Just to briefly add to #432, 1994 is really adding up.

When reviewing my notes on the Red "names", I came across a note I made that when Fitch comes to see Red, he says its been 20 years since they last met. That would make it 1994 as the visit should have been in 2014. I wonder if there was some sort of pact for others to back out of Red's life in 1994 (whoever he is). The classified docs appear, Red goes off the radar, last meeting with Fitch, last meeting with Naomi/Carla, Liz is pronounced in greater danger. Hmmm

Last edited by lara1 (5/30/2017 11:50 pm)

lara1 · 5/30/2017 11:53 pm

This is my Liz/Masha/Liz post carried over from the finale page, as I keep thinking about this...LOL.

I started to think again about the "2 girls/2 daughters" theory and started to write out some thoughts last night but they got convoluted so I'm going to think through it some more and come up with a more concise theory.

But in thinking through it, something occurred to me re the finale ep 22 - we had two different instances of 2 white rabbits. First, there is the snake, Betsy, and the two white rabbits. Then in the attic of the barn at Tansi Farm, it looks like 2 white stuffed rabbits in a box in the background. There were also 2 white rabbits on fire night (the one Liz had, and the one in the girl's room that they pass on their way out of the house.) So I wonder if this is pointing to 2 girls, daughters, Elizabeths, something like that. Why 2? And why 2 of many things in the girl's room in Summer Palace? Did some of them belong to "original" Masha?

So - I'm leaning towards there being 2 girls/daughters, one was Masha, one Elizabeth, something happened to Masha (when - I am still figuring out), Elizabeth then kind of "replaced" Masha. Then, ultimately she became Elizabeth again.

This would align somewhat with the Flora Segunda novel, where the first daughter died and the second daughter "replaced" her and had the name of the first daughter as well.

It might also explain why on fire night, the man (father?) is calling the daughter Elizabeth while the woman (mother?) is calling her Masha, even though we are told that Liz got the name Elizabeth after she went to Sam. So - my idea is that in the fire night memory, the father is calling her by her original name (Elizabeth), before she was re-named Masha. Whether that is why KR wouldn't let the father see her any more or whether the two girls had the same father, I haven't worked out yet. This is just a theory so may not even be the case.

Lots of open threads, including Kate's memories, when Elizabeth was replaced for Masha, etc. But it might explain why Kaplan can say in Mato that Red placed Elizabeth in her arms as a baby, whereas in the memory, KR places Masha in her arms. Same girl, different name, different time/place (Red - Moscow? KR - Canada?)

Maybe not but I think 2 parts of Red's dialogue also got me thinking about this - he says to Kate that Elizabeth "isn't Masha anymore"; and to Dom he says he lost Masha once, he won't lose Masha again, something like that. Both, on the surface have obvious and simple meanings we can understand. But what if it meant something else, and those lines were clues?

Then again, maybe not! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (5/30/2017 11:53 pm)

lara1 · 5/31/2017 12:00 am

Tatiana, my thoughts on the suitcase - options are:

1. Katarina
2. An older child - ballerina girl? sister of Liz? other girl in fire house?
3. For those who believe in the imposter theory, the "original" Reddington
4. Unknown person

Those involved with the show have been clever enough to not show the parts of the remains that would indicate male or female, or even, age.

I agree that because of how Red refers to the suitcase, it can't be Katarina.

I'm not sure how to take what those involved in the show say. We've heard multiple times that Red is not Liz's father, that Liz died, among other things. At the end of the day, I don't believe its in the best interests of the show for anyone to really say too much or let on too much. Having said that, maybe the story is just about a family. A very unusual and potentially dysfunctional and criminal one. But a family nevertheless.

I finished sorting through the names of who called Red what. Its' late, I'll post it tomorrow. Some interesting connections (well, to me anyway! LOL)

Last edited by lara1 (5/31/2017 12:01 am)

Tatiana · 5/31/2017 12:27 am

Thanks Lara!!
interesting take on who's in the suitcase (that was really weird to write that!)
I was thinking about who calls RR what and I kept thinking that Fitch always called him Ray. I just kind of find that intersting.

Eastcoast · 5/31/2017 1:13 am

Great comments to everyone!
There have been so many I am not sure who said what when I am this tired.

I have re-watched a few episodes. I am doing so randomly and then I will binge watch from the beginning. But for now I watched Isabella Stone, Cape May & L Braxton 1 x 1 & #2. twice and Kaplan #2.

In Braxton 2,
For now, I do not think the fire memory is fake. Braxton says he knows about the fire & the stories etc...
I think some things may be screwed up in the way she remembers them like the Dr. told her. At one point Red is telling her 'you don't want to go in there, you don't want to see this'. I really think he is just trying to keep her from the memory of who she shot.
( I don't see a tree out the window that someone mentioned? Which part is it in?)

And I also want to mention I got the best shot of that girl in the closet and will try to get it on here tomorrow.

In Cape May,

I noticed that there are a lot of close up shots of his eyes like there was when he was with Kirk.
When KR was at the tub he looks like he is actually sneaking up on her with that axe and has a creepy look on his face.
I feel like the hatchet is a real part of his memory since he seams to hang onto it a lot.

The biggest thing that bugged me since the first time I saw it was in the beginning when KR said 'its not that he died or how he died'. If this were a person she cared about why wouldn't it bother her that he died at all? Especially how he died?

The other thing I wondered about is what if that is what Red was thinking and not her? What if those were his thoughts? What if they had an argument right before she died?
She was wanted by both USA and Russia for being a double agent and crossing them both from what I got out of it. And crossed Red.

In Kaplan #2,
I blew up a bunch of pics and lightened them and it looks like the right side of the skull has a gash in it.
It did not look like 2 bunnies in the barn to me, I saw a white bear and what could have been another white bear?

I got all kinds of thoughts watching Braxton, Cape May and then Kaplan. Too many to write right now.

I did update the timeline and filled in the stuff I saw in Isabella Stone.

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/31/2017 1:15 am)

Tuxie400 · 5/31/2017 6:25 am

I personally don't have a problem with the way Red referred to the suitcase and the bones inside being Katarina. Here are my reasons why:

1. Red is irritated to the max about what Kaplan has done and ramifications it will have.
2. He is damning the suitcase, - not the person inside.
3. I'm not sure Red felt any love for Katarina at the end of their relationship. While he shows concern for her in Cape May, I see absolutely no romantic love.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/31/2017 6:32 am)

Tuxie400 · 5/31/2017 6:29 am

lara1 wrote:
Tatiana, my thoughts on the suitcase - options are:

1. Katarina
2. An older child - ballerina girl? sister of Liz? other girl in fire house?
3. For those who believe in the imposter theory, the "original" Reddington
4. Unknown person

Those involved with the show have been clever enough to not show the parts of the remains that would indicate male or female, or even, age.

I totally agree with your ideas about who's in the suitcase, and I agree with the order you have them listed.

lara1 · 5/31/2017 10:53 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
I personally don't have a problem with the way Red referred to the suitcase and the bones inside being Katarina. Here are my reasons why:

1. Red is irritated to the max about what Kaplan has done and ramifications it will have.
2. He is damning the suitcase, - not the person inside.
3. I'm not sure Red felt any love for Katarina at the end of their relationship. While he shows concern for her in Cape May, I see absolutely no romantic love.

Tuxie400 - good points. Also I like #3. Red and Katarina's interactions in Cape May have had me thinking that there was no romantic relationship between them, hence how could Red be LIz's father. Concern, care, yes. romantic love, no (although the under the covers scene might be the exception). Your idea means that they had been in love, once - but at the end of the relationship Red no longer felt romantic love for her? That would make much of Cape May make more sense, IMO.

Last edited by lara1 (5/31/2017 10:54 am)

Eastcoast · 5/31/2017 10:55 am

Best pic I got of girl/woman in closet.

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/31/2017 10:55 am)

Eastcoast · 5/31/2017 10:56 am

This is the purse in the background.

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/31/2017 10:58 am)

lara1 · 5/31/2017 11:16 am

east coast #9 - Interesting thoughts.

re Braxton. Several of us here have discussed how Red did have Liz's memory altered so that she would not remember shooting/killing her father. He confirms that again in the recent Krilov episode. Which brings me right back to Red stating on different occasions, in different ways, that her father is dead. If he wanted to protect her from the memory of killing her father (which I agree with you is his reason for saying to her, "no Lizzie, don't go there, you don't want to see that" during the memory recall sessions in Braxton), then the conclusion is her father is dead so how can he be her father?

I think the last part of the season gave us hints/points to remember that Liz supposedly killed her father, and reminders that Red had her memory altered so that she would not remember it. Yet, we also have DNA telling us Red is her father. LOL Season 4 is going to require intense concentration on re-watching!

Re the fire, - yes, to clarify, I think there was a fire, one of my thoughts is just that "Liz" was not at that fire, it was Masha, if you want to think that there were two girls. No scar visible on Masha in the hotel room, and implanted fire memories for Liz. Liz's fire memories seem to be at another house. And yes - There was a large tree in the memory. Why implant a fire memory? Was this part of a "plan" for Liz to be Masha? That's my point about "no fire". Unless the whole thing was just to try to create a fire memory, in a house that no longer existed as it had burned to the ground, for the purpose of "covering" the shooting. But if Liz was at the fire, wouldn't she already have a memory? Why not just alter the shooting incident part of it? More questions!!!

If you want to get really crazy about this idea, Liz is not Masha, Liz was not at the fire, or left before it started, Masha, and not Liz, shot her father, Liz had an implanted but buried memory about it, because she is meant to be Masha. IF Liz never killed "her" father, then it makes it much more possible that Red is her father. But I think that it too convoluted even for TBL. I just throw it out there in case it sparks any other ideas.....

lara1 · 5/31/2017 11:19 am

Thanks Eastocoast for the screen shot! I have actually seen yet another person, a child. The pic you posted is of a person seated to the left of little Liz in the closet. The other face I saw, was very faint, almost like a ghosty image, of another child, to her right, a second before it cuts to a completely different scene. Wow, that was a busy closet!

I like the picture of the purse, as well. I never noticed that detail! So was there a woman living at the house, and who was she? I have tried to figure out what else was in the closet, to no avail....men or women's clothing?

lara1 · 5/31/2017 11:38 am

I have created a list of who calls Red by which name - under Reference. I also included the date, if known, of when that person first met Red in person.

Tatiana - Honey West - I tried to create this as a sub-forum under "Reference" but instead it came up as a sub-category of Timeline. Is there a way to change this? I can re-post it as another "subject" under "reference" but I was trying to get it as a sub topic, like "timeline".

lara1 · 5/31/2017 11:47 am

Some Observations on the Names

When typing up the names from my notes, the most interesting thing that leapt out at me was the use of "Ray" as Red's name. the only person who calls Red, "Ray" is Fitch, who seems close to Red, and to have known him for.a long time, yet remained an enigma and we really don't know how long he knew Red and when they first met.

The interesting link to this is that in Gregory DeVry, DeVry, as imposter "current" Reddington refers to himself, when talking to the FBI, as Ray Reddington. In addition, the transcripts all him Ray. This may have only been a device to allow everyone to follow the script knowing who was "current" Red and who was "Imposter current Red". But I found if interesting - because Fitch, who is a person who would arguably know if "current" Red is an imposter (and part of an agreed plot), calls him Ray. I always thought DeVry was an imposter posing as the imposter ("current" Red). So this could be another link/clue that Red is an imposter. Or maybe not.

For the other names, I've come to the conclusion that who calls Red, "Red", and who calls him "Raymond", isn't necessarily a clue into who he is. That is, those who call him Raymond, are those who have the most personal connection to him. And those who call him both Red and Raymond can be considered both business associates and friends (Stratos, Marvin Gerard).

The main issue is that we don't know for many people how long they have known Red or when they first met him in person. But those who arguably knew "old" Red the best, and knew him the longest time ago, never addressed him by any name (frustrating!)

Last edited by lara1 (5/31/2017 12:08 pm)

Tuxie400 · 5/31/2017 12:21 pm

lara1 - I don't know that Raymond was ever truly in love with Katarina - in lust perhaps. We did see him in that car with Kat in Requiem. And perhaps she was an addiction - the something dark he was drawn to like Liz was drawn to Tom. Kirk and Kaplan confirm Katarina broke off the relationship with Raymond, and when she did, he took Masha. He chose the child. By the time we get to Fire Night, I think he felt betrayed and set up by Katarina. And we know what Red does to people who betray him. That's why I'm willing to believe those bones in the suitcase could be Katarina's - if Red is the original Raymond. If he's really Katarina, I think the bones belong to Raymond Reddington.

Tuxie400 · 5/31/2017 12:37 pm

Eastcoast - I can't see your photo very well because it is too small. My computer won't let me go to Image Bam where you have it housed. So is it a totally different person than Liz or child Liz. Do you think it's an adult. Could you either post the photo larger, or tell me what it shows?